|By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 08:45 am: Edit|
The idea that JFK was in fact some kind of 'Dove' that would have pulled the USA out of Vietnam is a popular myth is false. Where is the evidence for this?
In reality JFK was not happy with the level of CIA operations in Vietnam and massively up the level of covert operations in Vietnam. He instigated a huge program of covert operations in North Vietnam (the largest American covert operation during the cold war period). Hardly the actions of a man eager to get the USA out of Vietnam. He also instigated covert Operation Mongoose in Cuba to try to destabilise Cuba (or "Cubar" as JFK would say). And not forgetting that in the short space of time he was in office he loaded the USA up with Nukes. This along with his support for McCarthyism and his Mafia links hardly supports the misconception that JFK was some sort of 'liberal' 'dove'. JFK was a 'hawk' and not exactly a very 'liberal' hawk at that.
To give the Vietnam war the credit the success of rock and roll, and to give JFK's death as the reason why the Vietnam war continued (especially considering his operations in Vietnam) is nonsense. As for rock and roll being responsible for the fall of communism, I really don't think so.
I actually admire JFK, not because of his political stance or his media manipulation skills, but because he was a very strong leader and a very formidable opponent. But he was not the man percieved by those many dreamy-eyed believers who have swallowed the myth of 'Camelot'.
|By Baz on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 08:16 am: Edit|
C'mon, Don. I expect more from the people of this forum than "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you." If we head down that road, posts will consist of WWAAZZZUUUUPPPP and then I'll have to move on...
c'mon, man, spill it!
|By Don_Walsh on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:41 am: Edit|
Marilyn was in fact doing both JFK and RFK. Now, this is not too surprising, since JFK was sticking it in anything that didn't stick it in him first, while Robert was by nature a more discrete and secretive an individual (albeit a bit of a megalomaniac, which his brother was not, particularly.)
Don't deify the Kennedys. They had their points, bad and good, but were not demigods, far from it, and information is just starting to emerge that suggests that the US establishment had an utterly justifiable reason to remove the elder brother, at least. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm just saying that, if it is, they may have had a good reason.
Marilyn had little to do with it all, really. Jack's dalliance with her was not his down fall, that was an affair with a women he had known and loved a decade before, which flame was rekindled while he was President, and during and after her divorce from one of the Agency's most powerful men, who happened to be the brother in law of the editor of the Washington Post, and the best friend of the Counterintelligence chief of the CIA, for whom his errant wife may well have worked.
The Agency man was Cord Meyer, the editor was Ben Bradlee, Meyer later became Deep Throat, and Meyer's wife was a very beautiful woman. She was killed a few months after the Cuban Missile Crisis during an apparent mugging as she jogged (a daily routine) along the Reflecting Pool, and I have reason to know that her ex-husband's best friend, CI chief James J.Angleton, spent years looking for her diary.
I could tell you the rest, but you wouldn't believe me, and then I'd have to kill you, anyway, even if you did.
|By Baz on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:40 am: Edit|
I think so-she was hot regardless of who was in her last night. Of course, "important" is relative. Would millions have been killed in Rwanda and Burundi if she had lived? Would Somalia still be lawless? Would Algeria still be hell? Of course. Probably no difference if Kennedy had lived. His importance to Americans (Beyond image, sex, etc) was his cool handling of crisis-cuban missile crisis- and his "laying down the gauntlet" of the moon. He challenged people. Intellectually he may have been a doormat, I don't know. I never knew or studied him, he was just something from a generation before me. But he inspired people, he said the things that made people feel good in times that they probably had no reason to feel good. He challenged the nation to do the impossible, and said because it's hard we want to do it. Because we are better we can. Whether or not he was right or good has little to do with the mystique. People love to hear that shit.
There's an answer, from someone who just saw him as a historical figure.
|By Arj on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:39 am: Edit|
Kennedy's death was certainly important. If he hadn't died, LBJ wouldn't have been so caught up in trying to look tough on communism in the 1964 election against Goldwater. That is, if Kennedy had lived, it is probable that we wouldn't have been pulled so deep into the Vietman War. If not for Vietnam, a whole generation would not have been so radicalized. You would not see the blame-America-first gang have so much power as it has had over the past 30-plus years. You may not have seen all those assassinations and attempts in 1968. And the Beatles may not have been so popular, their timing in coming to NY at a time that America desperately needed a distraction and something happy and light (just months after the JFK assassination) was fortutuous. If not for the Beatles, rock wouldn't be what it is today, and the draw of Western block culture might not have been as strong in the Eastern Block to help bring down communism peacefully. The Beatles (and the pope) had as much to do with the fall of communism as did President Reagan's and Mrs. Thatcher's policies. Ergo, JFK's death was huge, a major turning-point, and definitely bigger than anything he did in life. Hope that answers your question.
|By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:23 am: Edit|
You made a statement, you never asked for a response.
But would Monroe's death have been as 'important' if it wasn't for the fact that Kennedy was shagging her?
|By Baz on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:15 am: Edit|
of course, it was....
|By Baz on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:15 am: Edit|
you didn't respond to my explanation of the importance of monroes death either. That doesn't mean my response was right.
|By Baz on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:13 am: Edit|
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
|By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:13 am: Edit|
If your definition of a lively and interesting post is a post made up of insulting, childish remarks then I'm afraid I won't be obliging you. I hear enough of these in the school playground everyday.
Anyway the last time you atttacked a post made by myself, i.e. on the irrelevance of Kennedy's death, I challenged you to justify exactly why Kennedy's death was such an important turning point in American history. I see you made no reply. I can only draw the conclusion that you cannot back up your statement, or is it perhaps is that you prefer to post insults and run away from anything that requires something other than a shallow response?
|By Arj on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:07 am: Edit|
Call the school-master: "Children, if you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!"
|By Marccampbell on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 02:06 am: Edit|
then post something lively and interesting. you're such an arrogant twit. let your hair down. if you have any.
|By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:16 am: Edit|
At the moment this forum ,with all it's "You're a moron", "No, you're a moron" infantile name calling and petty, snide insults, is like a children's playground.
Would all the children please go and play somewhere else for a while.
|By Pablo on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 01:06 am: Edit|
Excellent quote. Just wish the movie exposed more flesh during that scene!
|By Raschied on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 06:24 pm: Edit|
Thanks, Vera. I'm glad to see someone got it.
JUICE BY VERA!
JUICE BY VERA!
YAAAY! VERA'S GOT THE JUICE!
|By Lint on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 03:03 pm: Edit|
good quote vera...
|By Chevalier on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:52 pm: Edit|
And that's an insult to the Special Olympics, Arj. ;-)
|By Joalco on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:50 pm: Edit|
You know what's better than winning the gold medal in the Special Olympics?
Not being fucking retarded!
|By Arj on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:45 pm: Edit|
winning this contest is like getting a gold in the special olympics
|By Verawench on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:44 pm: Edit|
Ass to Ass.
|By Raschied on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 02:39 pm: Edit|
Gee, Marc's a winner! Ordinaire is a winner!
WE ARE ALL WINNERS! YAYYY!
JUICE BY ORDINAIRE!
JUICE BY ORDINAIRE!
YAAAH! ORDINAIRE'S GOT THE JUICE!
JUICE BY MARC!
JUICE BY MARC!
YAAAH! MARC'S GOT THE JUICE!
|By Don_Walsh on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:24 am: Edit|
I see a toad named Jorge. And no toadies. Marc's my friend and never my toadie or anyone's, he and I have gone many rounds previously.
Jade needs no toadies.
And the forum needs no toads.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 07:04 am: Edit|
What a post, Marc.
You win Jade's "Toadie of the year" award...
|By Don_Walsh on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 06:35 am: Edit|
Ma'am, excuse me, but is your aids virus housebroken?
Wouldn't want any steamers on the venerable Shiraz, now, would we?
|By Marccampbell on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 01:58 am: Edit|
ordinaire has won the contest. He's a winner.
Don, kallisti, ted, myself, and the rest of the forum members would like to congratulate ordinaire on his moment of triumph. He fought a hard battle, and though he may be bloodied and bruised, he has emerged victorious.
ordinaire, as you exit the forum we would like to present you with the following gifts:
a collection of rare and tantalizing erotic black and white photographs of hairless Mexican chihuahuas. These south of the border beauties
will make your blue-veined-blood-bomber stand at attention like a fresh-faced Marine on his first day at boot camp. Enjoy, amigo.
cum-encrusted jockey shorts formerly worn by
the fabulous Bob Crane of Hogan's Heroes fame.
This is the same pair of underwear that Crane was wearing on the night that he was murdered, as a result there are traces of genuine fecal matter and actual shards of glass in this priceless Fruit Of The Loom collector's item.
the deviated septum of David Crosby of CSNY.
This little snot rocket is split right down the middle and floating in a jar of amber-tinted formaldehyde. Great for parties. Have it bronzed
and you can actually use it to chop up lines of coke! A rock and roll memento that'll have your hippie friends blowin' chunks of granola out their nostrils.
and finally (drum roll, the curtain parts),
a 50 gallon giant carafe of Hill's absinthe. Hill's, the pinnacle of modern absinthe, is an international party pleaser.From the darkened drug dens of Prague to the glittering piss palaces of Paris, Hill's says "you've arrived". And if you look closely, Mr. ordinaire, you'll see a surprise floating in that giant jug of Hill's. Is it the bloated corpse of Don Walsh?
No such luck! Its game show host Louie Anderson!
Don couldn't make it. He's busy in Bangkok fighting off aids viruses the size of chihuahuas.
But, he sends his love and congratulations.
ordinaire, you've been a great contestant. Thankyou for playing FAIRY FOR A DAY!
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