Sha'alo shalom L'Yerushlayim...

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archive Thru March 2002: Sha'alo shalom L'Yerushlayim...
By Admin on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 06:06 pm: Edit

mew.

By _Blackjack on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 01:16 pm: Edit

You're so sexy...

By Admin on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 11:50 am: Edit

Blackjack,

heh, King Jesus is definately fiction! But he taps into a nifty mythos that gives a nice spin to the story. He was on crack when it came to much of his scholarship ... but "I, Claudius" was such a spectacularly written soap opera too often folks thought it was all true. But he did the same thing with that that he did with his more scholarly works. Took a grain of truth and then extrapolated it to spin it out to a logical conclusion. What you said. He was just doing it with material alot of folks didn't touch at the time.

Have I mentioned that "I, Claudius" (along with Julian Cope) is one of the greatest inventions of the 20th?

By _Blackjack on Sunday, March 31, 2002 - 02:03 am: Edit


Quote:

Palestine is based on the idea that the people that lived there (Arabs prior to the mandate) were descendants of the Philistines, it is a derogatory word in my opinion.



"Philistia" was referred not only for the southern coastal area, but was used under the Babulonians and Persians to describe the greater surrounding area the Philistines once ruled (and into whose population they assimilated), and the area was called "Syria Palistina" by the Romans. The area called "Judea," surrounding Jerusalem, was just a province of Philistia. The entire area was NEVER called "Israel". The Northern section between Bethel and Phoenicia went by that name for a few hundred years, after splitting with the southern kingdom of Judah, eventually being absorbed into the Babylonian empire and losing most of its connection with the culture and temple religion of Jerusalem. The Hebrews were NEVER a majority in the region, and were only the dominant political force during a few brief eras. When the Arabs took over in the 7th Century, they called the region "Filastin", and the name stuck for 1300 years of Arab rule, both for the region and its people.

To say that the Filastini people are simply "Arabs" is like saying the French are simply "Europeans". There was a distinct sense of culture and identity (tho not really nationhood) before the creation of Israel. One of the many mistakes made by the Western powers as they carved up the Ottoman Empire was that they assumed that all brown people were basically intercahngible, and drew up boundries not based on culture and identity and history, but on political convenience.

The biggest shame of this whole situation is that we, meaning the west, and specifically the UK and USA, brought it to a head. The conflict is NOT "thousands of years old". The Jews co-existed, even thrived, along-side the Muslims for thousands of years in the Middle East and North Africa, all the while as they were persecuted and murdered by European Christians. There was no animosity between the groups until the turn of the Century, when Zionist groups first began settling in Palestine (most of the early anti-Zionist rhetoric, however, came from Palestinian CHRISTIANS), and it did not become violent until after WWI, when we put our power behind the idea of a Jewish homeland.

Sigh. I do cerainly hope for peace, but I have trouble thinking it will happen. The Butcher of Beirut is Prime Minister (if you don't know about Sabra and Shatilla, look it up), and even if Arafat wanted peace, the more extreme Palestinian elements will not accept sitting down at a table with a man whom they see as a monster. Arafat is damned either way: if he cooperates with Sharon, he will lose all credibility with the elements he needs to control and they will continue the violence, and if he DOESN'T cooperate, he gives Sharon exactly the excuse he needs to dismantle the burgeoning Palestinian state. Hamas and the other mass-murdering Palestinian extremists are, essentially, doing more harm to their own people than they are to the Israelis. This isn't going to stop until one side is willing to take it on the chin and not strike back, and both sides have been burned too many times to do that.

Happy Oysters...

By _Blackjack on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 11:38 pm: Edit


Quote:

Justin, have you ever read Robert Graves' "King Jesus"?



Heh. As an historian, Graves was a really good poet, if you get my drift. It was an entertaining read, but Graves had a nasty habit (which deeply marred his compilations of Greek mythology) of filling in the blanks with his own ideas, regardless of whether there was any actual evidence to support them. An art later perfected by Joseph Campbell.

Of course, at least King Jesus was presented as fiction. Don't get me STARTED on Robert Eisenman.

By _Blackjack on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 11:33 pm: Edit


Quote:

He didn't resist Roman occupation with violence. That is totally contrary to his gospel of peace.




"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matt. 10:36)

The message of Jesus was complex and must be understood within the context of his times. Jesus was crucified; that was a punishment reserved for rebels and traitors. To the Second Temple Period Israelite, religion and politics were inseperable, and the various messianic cults (and their various Messiahs) were, by definition, revolutionary, inasmuch as the Messiah was to be an earthly king, a restoration of the Israelite theocratic monarchy. There were numerous Messiahs, both self-proclaimed and exalted by their followers, in the years before and after Jesus, who were directly involved in anti-Roman insurgency, the best known being Simeon bar Kokhba, who lead the revolt of 132 CE which lead to the razing of Jerusalem.

By declaring himself Messiah (which Jesus did, if he in fact rode into Jerusalem on an ass on a street covered with palm leaves, since this was an obvious reference to prophecy), Jesus was implicitly undermining Roman authority, even if his intentions were not specifically violent. While he may have expected divine intervention rather than armed revolt, it would not be unreasonable to think he was involved in a revolutionary movement. He kept company with Simon the Zealot and Judas the Sicarius, after all, and a full cohort (several hundred men) was sent to arrest him. If he wasn't an insurrectionist, the Romans THOUGHT he was...

"And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one." (Luke 22:36)

(None of this is germane to the discussion of the Israel/Palestine issue, but I have to use this damn degree for SOMETHING...)

By Pikkle on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Ahahahahaaaa! That's gay!

By Amnesiac on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Thank God for Jesus. (No pun intended) I really needed a day off tomorrow. Now I've got one!!! Now if only there were holiday's the rest of this week, I'd have it made.

With the help of Absinthe though, maybe every day CAN be a holiday!!!!

Happy Easter and all that jazz to all of you.

And to all of you a good night.

By Mr_Rabid on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 02:15 pm: Edit

I just read 'Lamb- the gospel according to Christ's childhood pal, Biff.'

Funny as hell, and very wise too.

I don't like the Christ 'died for our sins' thing for different reasons. I think he meant well- like a buddhist who achieves nirvana but turns back to help everyone else along the path.

But I would never bow before any god that required such a sacrifice. If his son hadn't died for us, God would have thrown us in a flaming pit? Wasted cities? Condemned us to oblivion?

Well, fuck him.

Concrete Blond said it well: "No I don't wonder why, I just wonder what he thought it would get us..."

By Dr_Ordinaire on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 01:11 pm: Edit

"Palestine is based on the idea that the people that lived there (Arabs prior to the mandate) were descendants of the Philistines, it is a derogatory word in my opinion. I don't honestly see why they identify with it. "

Chryssipus, weren't the Philistines just another people who got bad press in the Bible? I guess the name was not derogatory for them...

In any case, since land ownership there has become a game of "I was there first", "NO, I was there first" I guess the Palestinians won't be willing to use a modern name for themselves.

By Alphasoixante on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 09:22 am: Edit

chrysippvs,

fair enough. i didn't realize you were including all parties in your reference to israel. no harm done.

as for the question of terminology, i would assume "palestinians" identify with palestine because they can no longer for very understandable reasons identify with the name "israel". "struggles with god", incidentally, is misleading. the gods have nothing to do with it. it is, as always, a human all too human struggle.

as for "what jesus"? i had in mind the jesus of the holiday: the sacrificial lamb. that's jesus the symbol, not the historical bit of dust. the historical christ has been irrelevent for a long time. there was no intent to insert "motives" into the historical man, though my wording was misleading. on the contrary, i'm curious about the unconscious logic of the celebrants--about our motives, not what's-his-name's. (why, e.g., i would be happy that someone ELSE dies for MY sins. and why would i hold this image up as exemplary of morality and justice?)

Arj,
i already mentioned, as you repeat, that the cult of the martyr does not include murder. the point was that it's not a long step from the logic of suicide to that of murder. in both cases, someone's gotta pay. and as i mentioned, i'm primarily interested in the logic of the follower. it's murderous of me to approve of the fact that someone else pays for my crime. not to let the lamb off the hook, his choice implies approval of the principle that someone's gotta pay but it does't matter who. the shared logic is that of revenge.

as for whether or not it was suicide, i didn't mean that the historical bit of flesh committed suicide, but the symbol did. you've heard the story, right? "died for our sins" = intentional. in the storybook, the romans are bit parts in the divine production of the passion play.

By Admin on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 08:54 am: Edit

Justin, have you ever read Robert Graves' "King Jesus"? It's been many years since I have but I loved it at the time. He takes a humanized Jesus and places him in context of a proto-mythic journey of the doomed or hanged god.

By Chrysippvs on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 08:36 am: Edit

Alphasoixante,

I don't think there are any important Islamic holidays right now, and if there are I am regret I did not include them. I have deep sympathy for Muslims, and am currently learning Arabic at the mosque in town and attend Friday services. I certainly hope there isn't any latent orientalism in my language, and if there is, I would certainly apologize.

I perfer the term Israel over Palestine for several reasons. Israel means "struggles with God" and I can't think of a more perfect term for the area. Palestine is based on the idea that the people that lived there (Arabs prior to the mandate) were descendants of the Philistines, it is a derogatory word in my opinion. I don't honestly see why they identify with it.

Don,

I concur. The leadership in Israel is shot. One terrorist, and another Likud psycho. Like I said, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, not the political ends of Chairman Arafat or paranoid imperialism of Sharon.

As far as Jesus, all I have to ask is what Jesus? We have aleast 5 to choose from. The political dissident, the cynic, the agnus Dei, the gnostic docetic death, the Greek pervader of substance. Different Jesus' died for different people, for different reasons. Objectifying Jesus is one of the most dangerous religious moves one can make, it leads to inquisitions and the like. Jesus lived a life of humble ambiguity, there is no reason to hammer a reason onto the motives in/of his death.

By Arj on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 08:14 am: Edit

That's a stretch. Jesus's logic had "murderous underpinnings"? I don't think so. He didn't resist Roman occupation with violence. That is totally contrary to his gospel of peace. And "what's-his-name" didn't commit suicide. The Romans did the job. If your Palestinian buddys followed Jesus's, Gandhi's, MLK's model, they'd be living in peace and prosperity right now. Violence is not getting them anywhere.

By Alphasoixante on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 07:53 am: Edit

"A 16 year old girl detonated herself in a downtown market, for me this represents the insanity of the current situation.

Again, during this holy holidays for two faiths important to me, think of Israel, and hope for her peace."

with all due respect, the coincidence is thought-provoking: the actions of a cult of martyrdom during a holiday belonging to a cult of the martyr. the crucial difference, of course, is that the latter martyr didn't combine suicide with murder. but we shouldn't pat ourselves too much on the back for this. the glorification of suicide ain't a proud heritage. and the logic of suicide isn't that far from the logic of murder. you remember what's-his-name's logic for turning himself in: people have sinned, SOMEBODY has to pay for it, how about me? to make the murderous underpinnnings of that logic clear: somebody, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO, has to pay.

happy holidays, folks.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 07:18 am: Edit

Of course you have my best wishes, in support of your hopes and prayers, Justin.

But wuth an "ex" terrorisdt leading a pack of thugs on one side, and a Revisionist Zionist "fat fascist fuck" (as my publisher calls him) leading the other side, it's a tough one.

Remember the joke about Henry Kissinger, the leader of Sinn Fein, and Golda Meir?

All three are granted an audience with God and God asks them what they most fervently wish for.

Kissinger wants peace in East Timor.

God says "It will come, Henry, but not in your lifetime."

The Sinn Feiner asks for peace in Northern Ireland.

Again God says "It will come, Gerry, but not in your lifetime."

Golda asks for peace in Israel and the neighboring Arab states.

"Golda," says the Almighty, "it will come, it will come -- but not in My lifetime."

By Arj on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 06:13 am: Edit

what I meant was, the whole region will be chopped liver if the nuts don't cool it. nothing wrong with islam per se, just with the radicalized version, of any religion for that matter.

By Arj on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 06:09 am: Edit

not yet

By Alphasoixante on Saturday, March 30, 2002 - 05:54 am: Edit

"I know that many of you aren't Jews"

"Again, during this holy holidays for two faiths important to me, think of Israel"

something's strangely missing here.
what are palestine and islam, chopped liver?

By Mr_Rabid on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 08:23 pm: Edit

Ditto. It doesn't matter what god. This is suckey no matter to who, what, or if you pray.

Unless maybe Kali.

By 2loucheltrec on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:49 pm: Edit

Let's just hope it stabalizes some over there. I have a close friend that has family in Isreal and it's sad that he's afraid to go over now because of the turmoil.

By Admin on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:32 pm: Edit

hear, hear!

(and, keep Tiny Tim out of the Peace Process puhleeeze)

By Sicboy13 on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Tiny Tim also gave us...

"Tiptoe..thru the tulips.."

By Verawench on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 06:54 pm: Edit

Amen.
That was beautiful.

By Head_Prosthesis on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 06:19 pm: Edit

The God at the bottom of the bottle

By Verawench on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 06:12 pm: Edit

Which God, hm?

By Nancywhiskey on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 06:01 pm: Edit

As Tiny Tim so eloquently put it, "God bless us all, everyone."

By Mr_Rabid on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Hope is slim, but you've got mine.

By Chrysippvs on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 03:45 pm: Edit

I know that many of you aren't Jews, or religious in any traditional manner, but I know that all here, on some substantial level, care for the peace of the world. In that mindframe, on this Good Friday, and in the midst of Peshach, I urge you to pray for the peace of Jerusalem (what the title says).

As I am sure you have seen in the news today things have gotten to a very very dangerous point in the modern Intifada, and regardless of any political stance, it simply must end. A 16 year old girl detonated herself in a downtown market, for me this represents the insanity of the current situation.

Again, during this holy holidays for two faiths important to me, think of Israel, and hope for her peace.

- J

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