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The Fée Verte Absinthe Forum - The Oldest, Largest, Most Authoritative Absinthe Forum. _ General Absinthe Discussion _ Question to FV

Posted by: mgs Apr 13 2010, 08:20 AM

Can someone please explain me the differences and similarities of the forums in La Fée Verte and WS ?

I observed that there are some common people in both…….. The web-site programing is very similar, although I learned that FV has been around for longer…

There are a few topics in La Fée verte that we don't have in WS and vice-versa….

I also observed that in La Fée Verte people like to be more anonymous than in WS……. it would be interesting to understand why….

I also understand that diversity is always better, but would not be interesting to merge both forums ?

- Marcelo

PS: I posted a similar discussion in WS…… but I thought would be also interesting to get your perspective here… guillotine.gif

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 13 2010, 11:53 AM

This is an open forum where you can say anything you choose. Though you may have to bear the consequences, you will not be banned.

Posted by: Provenance Apr 13 2010, 03:32 PM

The essence of WS is explained here http://www.louchedlounge.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5546

Posted by: Tibro Apr 13 2010, 06:10 PM

Which is not to say that that link explains the essence of the Lounge. While the essence of FV is that it is essential. From which you may accurately conclude that WS is merely an accident.

A tragic accident.

Philosophically speaking.

Posted by: mgs Apr 13 2010, 07:27 PM

if I can say whatever I want and not be banned it is something that I like.

I grew up in a military dictatorship in Brazil…. and went to the streets in 1984 (Diretas Já) to support democratic elections for president……… now Brazil is a democracy, but I lived there during bad times…..

so, I like the spirit that we can say what we think.

and I am open to any criticism. Dialogue is what constructs the world.

speak_n_spell.gif

Cheers,

- Marcelo

Posted by: Tibro Apr 13 2010, 09:10 PM

I'm close to some people with experience of growing up under a Communist regime. Censorship is a black hole that goes against the very nature of human endeavors. Of course, the freedom to say whatever you want also carries its own consequences. Everybody around you is also free to comment on your words, ideas and opinions. Some of it can hurt. But even that pain can point out that you're free and alive and, yes, even able to fuck up and shout about it. Cacophony is sometimes just a joyous celebration of life and freedom.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 13 2010, 10:18 PM

Cacophony beats the heck out of phony caca!

Posted by: eric Apr 13 2010, 10:20 PM

Word!

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 01:03 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 13 2010, 06:18 PM) *

Cacophony

That's fine. But it's also the reason why this place is deserted and why the press avoids this place like the plague. It's been a pretty quiet cacophony over the past year or two. One would have expected the opposite, since absinthe has been in the public eye during the same time frame.

If your intent is to create that type of atmosphere, s'all good. I enjoy this place for what it is, and I enjoy the WS for what it is.

There's a difference between asking for a modicum of civility in order to create credibility and a welcoming atmosphere for strangers or researchers, and a military dictatorship.

My intent isn't to offend by posting this. It's to show the reality of the situation. Again, I like both places. I have fun in both places. But as mentioned, there are consequences for certain behaviors. Some, such as the flight of many active members here, might be unintended. But it happened.

Posted by: mgs Apr 15 2010, 02:30 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 15 2010, 07:03 AM) *

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 13 2010, 06:18 PM) *

Cacophony

… it's also the reason why this place is deserted…..


although I am a newcomer in both WS and FV, that is what I feel….. FV has many interesting posted topics, but seems a desert…..

I am not familiar to "forums"… this is my first experience in subscribing a forum. The only reason I subscribed was to learn about absinthe, since nobody in my immediate friendship knows or understand anything. Since "everything is on the Internet" I decided to subscribe to both WS and FV.

Of course I smell past problems that might involve people in WS and FV. I don't care because I am new here and there. And I learned folks, that "future is the next minute"…….. live with this in mind and you will have a better life ---- own experience.

SAÚDE.

- mgs

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 15 2010, 02:49 PM

Open society always has its dangers but at least people can feel free to speak without fearing the judgment of an all-powerful dictatorship. FV and Oxy's site are by far the best source of information on absinthe - the forum is an adjunct to that and not central to accessing that information. Many of those without whom absinthe would still be a historic aberration have historic attachments to this place and not a few of the best have incurred the wrath of Hiram and been banned from WS. Provenance's post shows the danger of that model when an innocent person wandered in only to accidentally tweak the Master's paranoia and be mistaken for Kirk (who apparently has been preemptively exiled from where he hasn't gone) and banned outright.

Sad, really.

The Press can go where they choose. The information is here but no-one is going out of their way to seek publicity for themselves.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 04:38 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 15 2010, 10:49 AM) *
the forum is an adjunct to that and not central to accessing that information.

Very true, but it's also associated with FV. And brings its reputation to the rest of the site.

We aren't trying to seek attention for ourselves. We're trying to educate the public. And doing a damn fine job of it. The information might be here, but people don't want to deal with everything else that comes along with it. Every time I speak to the press, I mention Oxy's sites. You would be amazed how many of them remark about the bad rep that the forums have. It really is a shame.

QUOTE
Provenance's post shows the danger of that model when an innocent person wandered in only to accidentally tweak the Master's paranoia

Oh please. Maybe you've changed since the last time I saw you, but I think you're better than to try to shovel that shite.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 15 2010, 05:51 PM

Good fucking luck educating the public. I'll stick to the forum where education is your own responsibility. The press have shown how slow they are to accept that responsibility. And the public gets what they deserve.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 06:24 PM

Fair enough.

But I guess that's where the difference between you and I lies. I'm a total proponent of caviat emptor, but I also have always been the type of person who likes to teach to people who are willing to listen. It's fun for me.

I have to admit, while the education process is extremely slow, I've had examples that show promise.

I attended a bitters seminar with Derek Brown about a week ago at the Columbia Room in DC. There were about 14 or 15 attendees, most of whom own bars or are mixologists. At the beginning, we went around the room to introduce ourselves. I mentioned that I was from the WS.

At the end of the seminar, as we were shooting the shit, we got to talking about absinthe. One of the guys (he runs 'A Jigger of a Blog') mentions that he reads the reviews (not just mine, ALL of the reviews for the particular product) before buying new products. Almost the entire group agreed and we began discussing some of the reviews.

Even though that's a small segment of the population, it's a segment that gets in front of a lot of people. If they are properly informed, it's a good start.

The seminar itself will even be on the radio, so it might drive even more people to do some research.

QUOTE
I'll stick to the forum where education is your own responsibility.

Somehow, I don't think that's how you view your occupation. It's not a far leap to bring that into your life outside of work.

Posted by: Patlow Apr 15 2010, 07:16 PM

That last post seemed pretty pompous.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 07:20 PM

Pompous by saying that people recognized the WS?

Pompous by saying I have fun teaching?

Seems to me, the 'Fuck everyone, they get what they deserve' comment is more pompous.


Think of it what you will. I've no illusions that I'll win anyone over on this site. Beliefs and opinions are too deeply rooted at this point.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 15 2010, 08:09 PM

He may have been referring to your self-aggrandizing way of making a point by pointing out what swell, helpful shlub you are. Thank you for pointing that out. And if you and that swell, helpful forum you commend needs to ban, er, expel from class a few obstreperous rowdies so the good mannered folk in the first row aren't distracted from their lessons, then so be it. What do we know about it, anyway.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 08:17 PM

The amount of people we've banned in the past several years is about equal to the number of people who left during the great schism, but have started to come around again.

So I like to teach. So what? I'm certainly not the only one at the WS and I'm sure there are a few here too. It's interesting how that can be turned around to me acting high-brow.

I understand. It's for the spectacle. That's OK. I won't take it personally.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 15 2010, 08:22 PM

Wisdom and education from the man who wrote:

QUOTE
People can run a forum however they so choose. Hypocritical or not. It doesn't matter.


I'm sure there must be a lesson in that somewhere.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 08:38 PM

It's true isn't it? If someone owns a forum, they can run it how they choose. That's not to say anything about Gwydion or Oxy or Ben or anyone else. It's just a fact. There's nothing you or I or anyone else can do to change it. They own it. I know you like to distort that by saying it's an admission that I think Gwydion is a hypocrite, but that wasn't my intention, and I'm sure you know that.

But I find it funny that you talk about hypocrisy, when you explained to me that censorship is evil and should never be tolerated, then came back and said it's OK for you to censor yourself at work because it's your job.

I guess censorship's OK if it pays the bills, but the line is drawn there.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 15 2010, 08:59 PM

MGS originally posted his question at WWS. I responded and asked him why he didn't post it here. Thank you, MGS for doing so.

I wanted it posted here because I was confident he would get opinions here that he wouldn't get there.

As I explained over there, Under the Bridge wasn't the best place for it (assuming it wasn't moved here from somewhere else, which if it happened was unfortunate because he's not a troll and I think he had only good intentions).

Posted by: Absomphe Apr 15 2010, 09:57 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 15 2010, 11:24 AM) *

But I guess that's where the difference between you and I lies.


For the love of God, Montresor, …me, not I!!! frusty.gif

Posted by: Artemis Apr 15 2010, 10:01 PM

I have to say that it's a joke that "the press" avoids this place (or any place that provides solid information). They don't have to comment in the forum, or even reveal that they are here, to glean information. So what's the problem? All the truth anyone needs to know about absinthe has been available here for many years, yet "the press" almost completely continued to ignore absinthe or to publish trash. Members here have every reason to hold "the press" in contempt. In fact, so does everybody else. To hell with "the press".

As to credibility, I would put the credibility of this place with regard to absinthe up against any source, anywhere, any time.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 15 2010, 10:08 PM

I'll drink to that!

Posted by: Absomphe Apr 15 2010, 10:09 PM

Beat you to it!

Posted by: Tibro Apr 15 2010, 11:07 PM

Shabbutt, I won't contest that the owner of a piece of property may handle their owned bit of propagandist machinery as they choose. But for you to swing your leaden balls around in a professed effort to edumacate the dirty masses, or the prim and proper honor students, or who-the-fuck-ever it may be, and say that any institutional hypocrisy, should it exist, "doesn't matter" is an attitude that should worry anybody seeking the truth. WS has an owner that may or may not be a hypocrite wielding a propaganda tool that he owns and professes to use towards a particular purpose. You, belonging to the inner sanctum of that collection of tools, don't care if it's being wielded honestly or hypocritically. What the fuck do you want us to invest in?

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 11:15 PM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 15 2010, 06:01 PM) *

I have to say that it's a joke that "the press" avoids this place (or any place that provides solid information).
You don't have to agree. But it isn't a joke. I've heard it so many times, I've lost count.

How many times have you seen Fee Verte referenced in an article?

QUOTE
They don't have to comment in the forum, or even reveal that they are here, to glean information. So what's the problem?
The problem is wading through all of the flaming and vitriol. Understand that many journalists are under deadlines and are looking for quick answers. If they have to dig through 3 pages of insults and arguments to find 2 or 3 posts of good information, they'll look somewhere else.

QUOTE
yet "the press" almost completely continued to ignore absinthe or to publish trash.
I can give you pdfs of articles in some of the best publications that are fairly well written and deliver good information to the public. The articles or presentations that aren't well written, are typically done by people who don't do their research. Which underscores the need for a good source of information that provides a comfortable atmosphere for them to get that information.

QUOTE
In fact, so does everybody else. To hell with "the press".
So, do you think that this site has the potential to reach more people than say, an article written in Reuters, or Robb Report, or Denver Post? Which has better potential to inform more people?

QUOTE
As to credibility, I would put the credibility of this place with regard to absinthe up against any source, anywhere, any time.

There is no argument that this site is a vast wealth of knowledge. That wasn't my point. But the credibility most certainly is tainted if a newcomer or researcher ventures into the forums and sees very little substantive discussion anymore. Along with have to sift through all of the negativity, that can definitey leave a bad taste in someone's mouth, and most certainly has.

Just look at the statistics regarding unique visits and even visits by established members. Active discussions have all but disappeared. Most of the people who are major resources don't even post anymore. Do you think that's a coincidence?

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 11:20 PM

QUOTE(Tibro @ Apr 15 2010, 07:07 PM) *
WS has an owner that may or may not be a hypocrite wielding a propaganda tool that he owns and professes to use towards a particular purpose.

Propaganda? What purpose are you talking about other than education? And PLEEEEASE don't say it's for his own brand. That argument is so ridiculous, and actually quite hypocritical for you to criticize if that's what you believe.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 15 2010, 11:25 PM

Propaganda, as in offering the proper edumacational informations. I didn't say it's a shill site, if that's what you're trying to accuse me of.

And do you think it's a coincidence that banning a few people leads the remaining members to stifle their dissent? If you can slap the leaders and the knowledgeable dissenters the sheep will follow. And bleat according to the Chairman's wishes. At least on his public domain.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 11:27 PM

I'm sure you're smarter than that. If they dissent, they will just go away. They aren't forced to stay on the forum. They won't just continue to stay. There are too many other places they can go. That's a ridiculous argument.

So again, what's the propaganda?

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 11:36 PM

QUOTE(Tibro @ Apr 15 2010, 07:25 PM) *

Propaganda, as in offering the proper edumacational informations.

Normally when that word is used, it is assigned a negative connotation. Which I'm sure was your intent.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 15 2010, 11:49 PM

That's right, any dissenters at WS come here and say whatever they want. No exceptions.

QUOTE

Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da

2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person


Propaganda is the dissemination of ideas and information. FV and WS are both propaganda machines. Except here at FV Oxy doesn't take careful aim to control all the opinions expressed and which should suppressed.

Clearly you have no fucking clue what my intent is when I use language, and use it appropriately.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 15 2010, 11:54 PM

And how many people in the past few years have left the WS to come here and bitch about it? They're coming over in droves, are they?

Let me turn that around. How many people have left FV, and instead joined the WS, or joined WS solely because they didn't like the atmosphere here?

I think we know which way the scales tip on those two questions.

I have more than a clue, just based on your past actions. Hell, I might know you better than you know yourself.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 16 2010, 12:37 AM

QUOTE
How many times have you seen Fee Verte referenced in an article?


I don't look. I don't care. The Internet long ago supplanted "the press" as the prime source of information. It doesn't matter what "the press" says anymore. So now, "the press" (like everyone else) is getting their information from the Internet? So they can what, pass it along to the handful of people who don't have access to the Internet, or to the lazy, or to the luddites? And we have to be nice to make sure they linger long enough to learn something worthwhile before passing it along to the insignificant number of people who for some bizarre reason chose not to bypass "the press" and go directly to the source? But maybe by "the press" you don't mean printed material, but websites run by "the press"? In what way are they more legitimate than this place? They're not. They're johnny come lately, profit-driven, would-be high priests of information too stubborn and conceited to understand that there's a new religion in town.

QUOTE
The problem is wading through all of the flaming and vitriol.


I've never found the level of flaming and vitriol here or on any other forum too much for me to handle. Time for "the press" and everybody else to man up. If I can do it, they can do it. I guess it depends upon how bad you want to learn something. That also goes for all the thin-skinned who allegedly turn their noses up at the (mostly long ago dried-up) blood here.

QUOTE
Understand that many journalists are under deadlines and are looking for quick answers. If they have to dig through 3 pages of insults and arguments to find 2 or 3 posts of good information, they'll look somewhere else.


Understand what I and some others had to dig through for YEARS, in obscure places, in foreign languages, at legal risk in some cases, and you may understand why I have no sympathy for people who want quick answers.
I am a writer by profession and have been for most of my adult life. I have always valued GOOD answers, have never cared how hard I had to work to get them, have been wary of quick answers, and have never let a deadline come before accuracy. In any case, only an idiot would dig through three pages of anything to find an answer when a search engine is available. I would submit that digging through three pages of "how are you, I had a nice day today, that's political so let's not discuss it further, and I just love that new (insert name of shitty "absinthe")" is every bit as tedious as sifting through three pages of insults and arguments, and a lot less entertaining, but that's just me.

QUOTE
So, do you think that this site has the potential to reach more people than say, an article written in Reuters, or Robb Report, or Denver Post? Which has better potential to inform more people?


I know for a fact that this site has the potential to reach anybody that any of those things reaches. Anybody can click a mouse. As to whether said people will be more accurately informed here than by those sources, it's here, period, end of story. Anybody who doubts that is a fool.

QUOTE
But the credibility most certainly is tainted if a newcomer or researcher ventures into the forums and sees very little substantive discussion anymore.


Using that logic, someone who doesn't talk much is probably a liar. Besides, the archives talk.

QUOTE
Just look at the statistics regarding unique visits


http://siteanalytics.compete.com/wormwoodsociety.org+feeverte.net+louchedlounge.com/?metric=sess

Pretty close and getting closer.

QUOTE
Just look at the statistics regarding unique visits and even visits by established members. Active discussions have all but disappeared. Most of the people who are major resources don't even post anymore. Do you think that's a coincidence?


A coincidence with what? The supposedly offensive tone of this place? I think Aggelos nailed it in his response at WWS. People aren't likely to get engaged in trivial conversation here - that's why some old hands don't post, and that's why some newcomers are intimidated. As to departed established members, some turned pro. Some got bored. Some quit drinking. Some grew up. Some died. Some got their feelings hurt and left. I know which ones I miss the least.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 16 2010, 12:49 AM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 15 2010, 08:37 PM) *
But maybe by "the press" you don't mean printed material, but websites run by "the press"? In what way are they more legitimate than this place? They're not.
Correct. But they have hundreds of thousands more readers.

QUOTE
They're johnny come lately, profit-driven, would-be high priests of information too stubborn and conceited to understand that there's a new religion in town.
No argument there.

QUOTE
I've never found the level of flaming and vitriol here or on any other forum too much for me to handle.
But there are hardcore forumites, and there are normal people. The normal people outnumber us dramatically.

QUOTE
I guess it depends upon how bad you want to learn something.
The general public has an attention span shorter than [insert witty short joke here]. You know that. Absinthe isn't important enough to most people to wade through it all.

QUOTE
Understand what I and some others had to dig through for YEARS, in obscure places, in foreign languages, at legal risk in some cases, and you may understand why I have no sympathy for people who want quick answers.
I DO understand. And I hold you and the rest of those researchers in the highest esteem.

QUOTE
I have always valued GOOD answers, have never cared how hard I had to work to get them, have been wary of quick answers, and have never let a deadline come before accuracy.
Which is why you're a better writer than most, and probably just a better person in general.

QUOTE
As to whether said people will be more accurately informed here than by those sources, it's here, period, end of story. Anybody who doubts that is a fool.
You know I don't doubt that. But it's a numbers game.

QUOTE
Using that logic, someone who doesn't talk much is probably a liar. Besides, the archives talk.
Just calling out the facts as I've heard them from people who have done exactly what I told you.

QUOTE
Pretty close and getting closer.
You mean for the month? Look longer term.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 16 2010, 01:06 AM

Yes, just a month. There may or may not be a trend.

So it seems we have agreement on some points. I guess I just don't have much time for the "general public", or much respect for them honestly. I've never seen it as my mission and it certainly wasn't my desire to educate them. I just found a place where I was comfortable talking about something that fueled my interest with people whom I found to be largely tolerable and at times brilliant. If people in the shadows learned something or were entertained, good. If not, still good.

Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 16 2010, 01:09 AM

Nothing to argue about there. As I've always said. There are people who find each place enjoyable. I'm one of them. I enjoy a spirited debate every once in a while.

It's always been a passion of mine to educate. Which is really why I started my practice. It was an easy transition to do so as a hobby too. Especially with something like absinthe, which has such a convoluted and fascinating history.

Posted by: mgs Apr 16 2010, 01:16 AM

if you guys want a coffee, I can make a Brazilian coffee that is the best and usually "calms down" anyone…. just show up in my place …..

thanks for all the information. I did not want to bring old and dead discussions… I just wanted to understand the forums FV and WS. They are really different, for sure, even a newcomer can easily catch.

and…. yes…. it was my fault to post on "Under the Bridge" but I did not find a general area for general announcements….. or maybe I missed, I don't know…


- Marccelo




Posted by: Artemis Apr 16 2010, 01:24 AM

It's all good. I would be happy to take you up on the coffee, mgs. I'm much more likely to drink that than absinthe (or any other liquor) these days.

The discussion is old, but it was never dead - it has always simmered under the surface.

And speaking only for myself, I'm so calm I'm almost dead. But my keyboard throws sparks, sometimes I even get burned.

Posted by: Donnie Darko Apr 16 2010, 03:16 AM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 15 2010, 08:37 PM) *


Understand what I and some others had to dig through for YEARS, in obscure places, in foreign languages, at legal risk in some cases, and you may understand why I have no sympathy for people who want quick answers.
I am a writer by profession and have been for most of my adult life. I have always valued GOOD answers, have never cared how hard I had to work to get them, have been wary of quick answers, and have never let a deadline come before accuracy.


I barely have time to read forums anymore, but the above quote alone was worth much more than the time spent reading it. You just summed up the entire problem with "journalism" today, not just divergent preferences regarding forum nuances. One can find good answers both here and at Wormwood Society. As for comfort, I feel I can be myself here more than there, so that's why I'm here, but many find their "self" fits best over there. Whatever.

But in terms of answers, where did those answers come from in the first place? That is a fucking FAR more interesting question than some dipshit argument about which forum is best. Real information comes from people who looked into the subject exhaustively and skeptically, because they cared about it and cared about accuracy, and cared enough about the process of learning it to share it with those who were likewise passionate.

And then there are the people who love sounding like an authority on things but rarely if ever are, which is the realm of journalists and distributors of information, whether they be part of a newspaper or on TV or an internet forum. It's the realm of those who try to repeat and condense information from elsewhere and usually either get it wrong or manipulate it for their own purposes. One must be able to distill knowledge properly just like one must distill absinthe properly: with attention to detail, to look underneath the surface, and to not settle for what is easy or fits a predefined answer.

Sorry for sounding so philosophical and pretentious, but sometimes that's just me.

And welcome Marccello. You seem like an interesting person.

Posted by: Patlow Apr 16 2010, 03:31 AM

Shabba-

When I said your post sounded pompous, I didn't have a problem with any of the actual words that you typed and I have nothing against you (I've seen you speak online, and I think you're a very likable bloke).

It's more of your (seemingly endless) unwillingness to let anything go and to always insist on having the last word. I feel like that attitude is omnipresent in so many threads here.

I too am a writer by profession (and I have even published on the topic of absinthe) so I detest censorship and that whole, "Get your own show" mentality. It offends me on a professional and even personal level.

FV might be a desert to you, but it's my internet absinthe home, and I don't like seeing shit slug at my house.

And if some have left FV or don't post here anymore b/c they've been offended while the WS is on fire, well, enjoy the burn. I won't be buying the next Jonas Brothers' album either.

I like my rock dirty, like my absinthe forum. I don't ever want this place to suffer the fate of Times Square at the hands of a Disneyland mentality.

Cheers, dude… And cheers to FV!

absintheglass-glow2.gif

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 16 2010, 04:03 AM

I completely understand where you're coming from, yet:

QUOTE(Patlow @ Apr 15 2010, 11:31 PM) *
but it's my internet absinthe home, and I don't like seeing shit slug at my house.

Why am I to blame for reacting to accusations? Why is no blame placed on those to sling the first stone? What about those who instead of sticking to the issue, turn it into personal attacks.

I'm sorry, but I've very rarely, if ever, been the person to start an attack. I've turned my cheek many a time. I've let plenty go. I let enough go on another forum that Tibro got bored and left after he realized he wouldn't be getting any more attention. I only jumped in on this conversation because I knew I was expected to.

If you want less shit to be slung, then maybe efforts should be made to stop it from starting in the first place instead of only calling out the person who defended themselves.

Is the problem really me, for getting the last word, or is it at least partially the fault of those who get the first?

If I came up to you in a bar and called you a prick and threw a drink in your face, should I be surprised that you might retaliate? Would it be your fault for getting pissed at my actions, or would the blame fall mainly on me for being the prick in the first place?

Posted by: Patlow Apr 16 2010, 04:26 AM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 15 2010, 08:03 PM) *

I completely understand where you're coming from, yet:

If I came up to you in a bar and called you a prick and threw a drink in your face, should I be surprised that you might retaliate? Would it be your fault for getting pissed at my actions, or would the blame fall mainly on me for being the prick in the first place?


Kung Fu has taught me NOT to fight. No need to kill someone who wants your wallet, just break the hand reaching for it and walk away with the wallet intact.

(Where do you live? I can recommend a Kung Fu school for you! It might help!)

Anyhoo… It's late here…

I get where you're coming from too…

Cheers!

Posted by: Patlow Apr 16 2010, 05:02 AM

That being said, I'd didn't mean to get all "Kum bay ya" on the last post.

Your post that I commented on did offend me.

I just don't want to perpetuate it.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 16 2010, 12:14 PM

QUOTE(Patlow @ Apr 16 2010, 01:02 AM) *
Your post that I commented on did offend me.

Well, that wasn't my intent, so I apologize for another example of unintended consequences.

As to your reference, the breaking of the hand is a reaction. What you explained to me basically means you should let them take your wallet and not respond at all.

Posted by: Patlow Apr 16 2010, 02:06 PM

Ahhhh… No matter now. No biggie.

Posted by: eric Apr 16 2010, 02:52 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 15 2010, 07:53 AM) *
A better comparison (as opposed to a military dictatorship) is to the difference between a Suit-and-tie restaurant and your local McDonalds.


The more appropriate comparison would be between Romper Room and Oxford.
Not that there is anything wrong with Romper Room. abs-cheers.gif

Posted by: Provenance Apr 16 2010, 03:04 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 15 2010, 08:38 AM) *
We're trying to educate the public.

You place great importance on education and appearing "respectable" to enhance site popularity with newbies and the media.

Both goals are ultimately irrelevant. Absinthe is a drink, not a cause.

Sure there is a huge amount of information on absinthe here accessible to anyone interested. But so what? Far more important is that virtually everyone alive who created that information, sweated for it, dug into old books for it, imagined and reimagined it, is or has been an active member here. And the pioneers discussed what they learned, thought, or felt like saying at the moment. I've even heard rumors that perhaps there may have been a touch of vitriol involved in some of those conversations, conversations that could never have taken place at WS, at least once it stopped being a local forum. Perhaps the motives of all those folks was to make life easy for reporters on deadline or to look oh-so-respectable for the neighbors, but I doubt it.

It's the process of discovery that matters, not reading some FAQs. No one needs FV to learn about absinthe. Like most others here, you probably managed to learn a great deal about absinthe when far less information was available.

FV has evolved. It's less a place of discovery and more a hangout for old friends. That may not be great for the ratings but it works.

The most important fact about absinthe I've learned is that its essence of absinthe is found in a LoucheFest. And a LoucheFest can be held without a drop of alcohol. Absinthe isn't about chop.gif, it isn't even about drinking. It's about the people who choose to drink and learn about and discuss absinthe. Even if they never voiced it, what Lautrec and Degas and Rimbaud knew is that it isn't what's in the glass that matters but the people you are with when drinking that glass.

On one level, you understand that. Perhaps you are ready to recount the great many (important) people you drink with. Or fond memories of drinking with friends. On another level, despite all of that, despite your endless protestations to the contrary, you don't have a clue.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 16 2010, 03:25 PM

You're right prov. I don't have a clue. I'm wandering aimlessly through life.

QUOTE
Absinthe is a drink, not a cause.

I agree. I don't treat absinthe as a cause. I treat absinthe education as a cause.

QUOTE
FV has evolved. It's less a place of discovery and more a hangout for old friends. That may not be great for the ratings but it works.
I don't see a problem with that at all.

I don't need absinthe to spend quality time with friends and associates. The friendships built due to absinthe are a separate part of my life. I don't hold tastings and seminars to build great relationships. Those are meant to educate the public. I build the relationships before and after those events, when I can sit down and get personal with people and learn about them and have a tertulia or two.

And Prov, you don't know me personally. So you don't know my motivations. Nor do you know the value I place on close relationships. You probably don't care to know either, since you've rebuffed me each time I've asked you to get together. That's fine. But don't try to act like you know whether I have a clue or not.

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 16 2010, 05:48 PM

An interesting thread, I've enjoyed reading it, and it got me thinking about what the site means to me. I'll post some thoughts on Fee Verte past, present and future here or under a separate heading over the weekend.

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 16 2010, 06:07 PM

Topic moved to General Absinthe Discussion section.


Posted by: Artemis Apr 16 2010, 06:56 PM

Excellent. Some of the best and brightest who are still around have made some points that I had in mind, but I didn't want to run on forever, and I didn't want to sound pompous, and they've put it as well or better than I could. Not to mention bringing the pomposity upon themselves harhar.gif

QUOTE
But in terms of answers, where did those answers come from in the first place? That is a fucking FAR more interesting question than some dipshit argument about which forum is best.


Yes. I've often wondered if I overrate the value of this forum to the rebirth of absinthe, but seeds were planted here that grew not only here but elsewhere. Maybe the scarecrows here were intimidating or disgusting, and maybe the field is fallow and the farmers are on the porch in the rocking chair, but ... The answers in the first place came from here, or started to come from here, or from people who were here. So those drinking easy absinthe or getting easy answers about it, have more for which to be grateful to this place than they realize - and that's just the public face of this place. The underground stream that flowed in parallel is every bit as important if not more so. This is where the heavy hoeing was done and the blisters were earned. I'm not talking here about the heavy hitters at WWS who readily concede the value of this site. Shabba made a reference to people in the press or the business who avoid this place "like the plague", and to hold such an opinion, it seems to me you have to value the superficial over the essential - I find that offensive.

QUOTE
I only jumped in on this conversation because I knew I was expected to.


That's right. I encouraged Shabba to jump in and warned him (not like he didn't know) that some cabbages would be aimed at his head. Whatever other problem people might have with him, he should be commended for his willingness to participate.

QUOTE
You place great importance on education and appearing "respectable" to enhance site popularity with newbies and the media. Both goals are ultimately irrelevant. Absinthe is a drink, not a cause.


Excellent post all the way around (excepting the last paragraph, which is personal - and since I don't know either Shabba or Provenance, I just can't comment).

QUOTE
The most important fact about absinthe I've learned is that its essence of absinthe is found in a LoucheFest.


Amen. And if we can't have a real louche fest, a virtual louche fest is a very good thing.

QUOTE
I'll post some thoughts on Fee Verte past, present and future here or under a separate heading over the weekend.

Well, Moses smelled the roses. I had hope for this thread, but not to this extent - Papa looked at his old Chrysler and with fond memories and fond regret, decided to pull it out of the barn and polish it. I know exactly how he feels.

Posted by: Steve Apr 16 2010, 08:27 PM

FV has had a huge impact on my life. I am thankful to have stumbled in here 10 or so years ago. I've made some dear friends and had some incredible experiences that I never would have dreamed of. I'll stop before I repeat that embarrassing episode from that one night at Le Soliat…

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 16 2010, 08:44 PM

I wish I had that evening in Hi Def.

Posted by: Steve Apr 16 2010, 08:54 PM

Me too. Not the crying part but everything else.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 16 2010, 10:20 PM

If I were to compare:

FV = Vintage Pernod Fils. No equal.
LL = A fine HG. A treat when I can get my hands on it.
WS = La Fée. Better than nothing.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 16 2010, 11:11 PM

I don't think anyone's intent was to ever debate which forum is 'better'. At least, it wasn't mine.

I've always maintained that I enjoy both of these forums. You can go through the WS and read all of the explanations I've ever written about this place to people who have asked. Not once have I disparaged it.

QUOTE
it seems to me you have to value the superficial over the essential - I find that offensive
I'm not the one avoiding the place. All of the comments smack of killing the messenger. I'd never recommend this place if I didn't find its content essential. I never would have voiced my concerns if I didn't respect this place.

Oh, and Stroller, without the WS, you never would have found that bottle of PF White. wink.gif

Posted by: Stroller Apr 16 2010, 11:30 PM

True, I think I have you to thank more than anyone for that bottle. abs-cheers.gif

Posted by: mgs Apr 16 2010, 11:42 PM

of course I am a neophyte in regarding of absinthe knowledge….. but I am following the interesting and live discussions at FV. This subject was also posted in WS but nobody is posting there anymore.

In my own experience in professional scientific societies I also know that there are conferences, or societies that have different perspectives… some are more academic, other industrial, other philosophical. I believe, based on what I read here that FV is more philosophical oriented and WS is more pragmatic oriented, that is my perception.

Both approaches are important. We need people who "think on the future" as well as people who "implement the present"…. and I am convinced that FV and WS are really two different pubs in the same town as someone else mentioned to my original post.

but I have to say something fun : FV has very nice emoticons !!!!

bobw.gif

Zombie3.gif (that is me when I post after midnight)

cheers,

- marcelo

Posted by: Artemis Apr 16 2010, 11:47 PM

QUOTE
I'm not the one avoiding the place. All of the comments smack of killing the messenger. I'd never recommend this place if I didn't find its content essential. I never would have voiced my concerns if I didn't respect this place.


I suspected I was going to have to clarify that. I didn't mean that I found your remark offensive. The "you" was a generic you, not you, Shabba. Allow me to rephrase my comment:

It seems to me that people with the attitude ascribed to the press and industry types by Shabba value the superficial over the essential.

Nor was it my intent to kill the messenger. I appreciate the message and I'm giving you (Shabba) the benefit of the doubt as to the veracity of the message - otherwise I would have just blown it off.

Posted by: speedle Apr 16 2010, 11:58 PM

Stroller, you left out at least two.

Otherwise, here goes. I wasn't going to wade into this, but I'm trying a new approach to life, and instead of beating my boss with a baseball bat, I'll just throw out an opinion or two here.

I feel like FV is the motherlode, the well, the root. It's where it started for me (if you don't count lurking 'round the Erowid site, ha!), and, I'll admit, where I come back to for the serious heavy hitting lowdown on the global perspective.

On the other hand, I think that WS, far from being La Fee (which is, after all, a low quality product), is more like Lucid (a well made product that just doesn't taste as good as some others). No, I don't like that analogy either, so fuck that. Better to just say that the Wormwood Society is, and is trying to be, the "Consumer Reports" of absinthe and absinthe education. Accessible, mostly non-confrontational, somewhat rigidly controlled, and having a consistent editorial vision that is partly Shabba's job.

I think we're WAY, WAY past comparing fora, forumites, and personal experiences at them. To me, anyway, they no longer serve totally overlapping purposes, and I like being at both, very much. I rely on both, just for different things these days.


Posted by: dakini_painter Apr 17 2010, 12:00 AM

QUOTE(Provenance @ Apr 16 2010, 11:04 AM) *

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 15 2010, 08:38 AM) *
We're trying to educate the public.

You place great importance on education and appearing "respectable" to enhance site popularity with newbies and the media.

Both goals are ultimately irrelevant. Absinthe is a drink, not a cause.


Absinthe certainly is just a drink. Unfortunately, many otherwise intelligent people are just as you say Prov "don't have a clue" when it comes to absinthe. I think it's a good thing that there are places on the internet whether it be WS or FV where they can find information of different brands, on proper preparation, history of the spirit.

Some of the memes surrounding absinthe are

o you hallucinate when you drink it (maybe people are referring to secondaries, I've never had one)
o you dip the sugar cube in the absinthe and light it on fire (well it looks cool)
o you drink it straight (or with little water, perhaps on the rocks)
o it tastes like sambuca or ouzo or licorice

At least the last one is closer to being accurate.

I know when I discovered absinthe and went to learn more, the main FV site was very useful. I remember looking over the reviews, the history, all that stuff. I lurked at the forums looking at what people were talking about. I didn't have an account at any of them for months. People don't need any forum in order to learn about absinthe. But they certainly were useful when none of my friends were interested in absinthe.

So much of what I learned when I got started I learned from FV and WS, and members at all the forums. So thank you!

Sadly, if people have the preconceived notions, they don't want to be told otherwise.

Posted by: EdouardPerneau Apr 17 2010, 12:09 AM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 16 2010, 07:11 PM) *



Oh, and Stroller, without the WS, you never would have found that bottle of PF White. wink.gif



Indeed ™

Posted by: Stroller Apr 17 2010, 12:16 AM

Speedle, I chose La Fee because some really like it while others detest it. I thought about Lucid but I hate the damn label.


Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 17 2010, 12:47 AM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 16 2010, 07:47 PM) *
The "you" was a generic you, not you, Shabba.
Understood. Which is why I didn't necessarily point out your post specifically, because there were others that were bashing me personally for reporting what journalists have told me.

QUOTE
It seems to me that people with the attitude ascribed to the press and industry types by Shabba value the superficial over the essential.
Absolutely no argument there.

Posted by: Patlow Apr 17 2010, 06:35 AM

You are the most annoying nice guy I never met.

"All of the comments smack of killing the messenger"

I just don't feel like you are the messenger.

Posted by: Marc Apr 17 2010, 09:02 AM

Very interesting topic.
Artemis, I enjoy reading each of your words, you have the talent to phrase thoughts nicely.

Could someone please point me to the same topic at WS? (yes I'm lazy)


(where are the damn popcorns!)

Posted by: sixela Apr 17 2010, 01:01 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 15 2010, 07:24 PM) *

Fair enough.

But I guess that's where the difference between you and I lies. I'm a total proponent of caviat emptor,


Only people who eat cavear are.


Posted by: sixela Apr 17 2010, 01:07 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 16 2010, 12:15 AM) *

How many times have you seen Fee Verte referenced in an article?


How many times have I read Gwydion's name as the author of a peer-reviewed article?

Horses for courses. I'm sure many people like to read Peace and War in the Reader's Digest version. I don't.

QUOTE
The problem is wading through all of the flaming and vitriol.

They don't even have to touch the forum to get information.

What I like about the forum, though, is the fact that you can see different opinions. A clash of ideas is to me much more enlightening than a pre-chewn statement derived from some orthodoxy (even if the orthodoxy is actually right).

But then, I usually like questions that don't have trivial answers.

Yeah, I'm not "the public". But then, I like the fact the world also has bar stools for people like me.

Posted by: Marlow Apr 17 2010, 01:43 PM

QUOTE(Provenance @ Apr 16 2010, 11:04 AM) *

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 15 2010, 08:38 AM) *
We're trying to educate the public.

You place great importance on education and appearing "respectable" to enhance site popularity with newbies and the media.

Both goals are ultimately irrelevant. Absinthe is a drink, not a cause.


I would argue that absinthe is a cause, at least for now. In most of the world, as best I can tell, there is no legal definition of absinthe and thus no protection for the identity of the drink (the recent Swiss faux pas notwithstanding). As it stands now, one could dissolve green crayon in Everclear and sell it as "absinthe," and there is a lot of economic muscle out there with a stake in ensuring that this situation continues. It is in the interest of every true absinthe enthusiast that accurate information be propagated…the less of a following there is for LTV, the better. Does anyone want to see liquor store shelves populated with LTV and Absentee, to the exclusion of Delaware Phoenix or Pacifique? Educating the public is one of the few things we can do to prevent that.

Additionally, there are a lot of modern day temperance advocates (at least in the States) who, though they may not have woken up to the absinthe revival yet, in time can be counted upon to come out in force for a new ban. Ignorance, myths about hallucinations…these things do us no good.

As for the press, love them or hate them, it is in our interest that they come to sites like WS and FV for information, as opposed to reprinting press releases from LTV. If reporters find the atmosphere at FV off-putting, then it's a good thing that WS provides a "less rowdy" alternative.

For the record, I like the atmosphere at WS. I've always felt I could say whatever I wanted to there, and I've never been censured for disagreeing with Hiram or anyone else.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 17 2010, 01:56 PM

Good for you but as Sixela pointed out, "They don't even have to touch the forum to get information." Though I too am irritated by the many varieties of swill that can and will pass themselves off as absinthe, I do not want the government (no doubt with the help of powerful businesses) to narrowly define what can be called "absinthe."
There is not and will probably never be enough Walton Waters, Pacifique, or Jade Eddie to satisfy mass consumption. Just as with beer, scotch or wines, there will always be better and worse with a high end small batch artisinal presence. Yes, education is important and the information here and on Oxy's site are available to all. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with being a member of any club or society but that is not what this is.

Posted by: Absomphe Apr 17 2010, 02:13 PM

QUOTE(speedle @ Apr 16 2010, 04:58 PM) *

I feel like FV is the root.


I'll grant you, this forum has seen its share of swinging dicks come and go, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to denigrate it like that. harhar.gif

Posted by: Marlow Apr 17 2010, 03:14 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 17 2010, 09:56 AM) *

Good for you but as Sixela pointed out, "They don't even have to touch the forum to get information."


Agreed, but if because of the forum they choose not to touch the main site as well, then FV as a whole is less effective. I suspect that good reporters would make use of the main FV site regardless of their opinion of the forums, but I also think that good reporters are few and far between.

QUOTE
Though I too am irritated by the many varieties of swill that can and will pass themselves off as absinthe, I do not want the government (no doubt with the help of powerful businesses) to narrowly define what can be called "absinthe."


To be sure, the devil is always in the details. Still, the greater danger is that absinthe be defined too broadly. Because of legal definitions, even bad whiskey is still recognizable as whiskey. We can't say that about absinthe.

Posted by: sixela Apr 17 2010, 03:48 PM

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 17 2010, 04:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 17 2010, 09:56 AM) *

Good for you but as Sixela pointed out, "They don't even have to touch the forum to get information."


Agreed, but if because of the forum they choose not to touch the main site as well,


Avec des "si", on met Paris dans une bouteille.

And why would tthat premise hold? The non-forum part is in the "antichambre" of the forum, not the other way around. Do you have any evidence of such behaviour?


Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 17 2010, 04:20 PM

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 17 2010, 09:07 AM) *
How many times have I read Gwydion's name as the author of a peer-reviewed article?

That really has nothing to do with the conversation.

QUOTE
I'm sure many people like to read Peace and War in the Reader's Digest version. I don't.
Also nothing to do with the conversation, as we're not discussing people like us, who enjoy the atmosphere.

QUOTE
They don't even have to touch the forum to get information.
Are you intentionally acting dense? I don't think I can make my point any clearer.

QUOTE
What I like about the forum, though, is the fact that you can see different opinions.
Debate and differing opinions are never frowned upon at the WS. There are plenty of opposing views. It's exactly that type of statement that shows that you really don't know anything about what the WS really is. You stick to preconceived notions and propaganda and don't actually look at facts.

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 17 2010, 09:56 AM) *

Good for you but as Sixela pointed out, "They don't even have to touch the forum to get information."

Again, it's irritating to see how close-minded you are about the reality of the situation.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 17 2010, 04:21 PM

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 17 2010, 11:48 AM) *
Do you have any evidence of such behaviour?

Seriously. You've got to be kidding me. Apparently you haven't been reading anything I've said. And this isn't the first time I've brought it up.

Posted by: Marlow Apr 17 2010, 04:27 PM

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 17 2010, 11:48 AM) *

Avec des "si", on met Paris dans une bouteille.

Hardly.

QUOTE
And why would tthat premise hold?

See Brian's posts above. I find the scenario he describes plausible. However, I do admit the evidence is anecdotal (hence my use of the conditional).

Posted by: Tibro Apr 17 2010, 04:35 PM

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 17 2010, 05:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 17 2010, 09:56 AM) *

Good for you but as Sixela pointed out, "They don't even have to touch the forum to get information."


Agreed, but if because of the forum they choose not to touch the main site as well, then FV as a whole is less effective.

Define effective.

Makes me think some folks are missing the point. Brings to mind the criticism of being clueless.

Not that I'd make that accusation at this time and place.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 17 2010, 04:35 PM

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 17 2010, 12:27 PM) *
However, I do admit the evidence is anecdotal (hence my use of the conditional).

I admit that as well.

But let's think about it.

First, I would have to make up the fact that the press feels that the FV has a bad reputation.

Then, I'd have to make up a reason to warn the FV about said reputation.

Finally, I'd have to prepare myself for the inevitable backlash against the WS and me personally.


Does that seem like a good use of my time?

So many of you view me as an arm of the 'enemy'. Don't you think that if I am indeed the enemy, and that the above is true, I'd continue to let you bury the forum instead of posting the information?

Ockham's razor, my friends.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 17 2010, 04:38 PM

QUOTE(Tibro @ Apr 17 2010, 12:35 PM) *
Define effective.

Makes me think some folks are missing the point.

Effective meaning accomplishing the goal of helping Oxy sell his brands and disseminating as much fantastic educational and historical information as possible.

If your point is that the members of this forum like to use it strictly as a place to hang out with friends, and that spreading absinthe information to the public is now ancillary to that, then fine. This whole conversation is then rendered moot and we have nothing left to discuss.

Posted by: Hiram Apr 17 2010, 04:42 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 15 2010, 06:49 AM) *
… Kirk (who apparently has been preemptively exiled from where he hasn't gone) and banned outright.


Again with the lies about banning. It's amazing, the irony of these accusations leveled at me— paranoia, subterfuge, dishonesty.

I'm not posting this as a reply so much as to provide further information for those reading it who may be new to this puerile charade.

Kirk http://www.louchedlounge.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5546&view=findpost&p=215540his intent to join WS to get banned:

QUOTE(Kirk @ Mar 2 2010, 06:33 AM)
I keep meaning to join so I can join the ranks of the banned.


Then several weeks later PMed me his disingenuous request to join. Nevertheless, my response to Kirk was honest and frank. Here is my reply in its entirety, to which Kirk has not responded.

QUOTE
Kirk,

Please wait until you're stone cold sober to read and respond to this. Seriously.

I'm going to be completely frank. I sincerely appreciate you reaching out, but I think you'll understand if I'm somewhat suspicious. This looks an awful lot like a Trojan Horse from where I'm sitting.

First of all, there is no divide in the community. Many people travel freely between forums. The divide exists in the minds of a tiny handful of people who dislike me and what I'm doing with WS. I'm fine with that, so long as they keep their reasons for that dislike honest and truthful. Unfortunately, that's not often the case because their real reasons aren't very pretty.

I've spent some time over the last several days going over many of the things you've said about me and WS in the last four years, and I just can't figure out what could have prompted such a change of heart.

You've said some incredibly hateful and untrue things to me and about me, and ridiculed and dismissed the work I've done building an alternative absinthe venue, but now you want to be a part of it. This is incomprehensible to me.

Have you finally realized that the things you were saying weren't true? The things you and others have accused me of have damaged my reputation and good name in the eyes of newcomers at FV. This isn't about the forums, it's personal. That's my real name out there being smeared in hundreds of posts. Who's going to un-do all of that damage?

What will your pals at FV and LL do if you join WS? Is this going to start a whole new era of bullshit? Because, to tell the truth, I'm pretty happy with the way things are; we're doing pretty well over at my place.

I'm not rejecting your request, but I am asking you if you fully understand what will be required to make this all good, and if you sincerely believe you were wrong about me and my work at WS.

Sincerely,
Gwydion


I'm not sure how that equates to Kirk being "preemptively exiled".

No one has been banned at WS for simply voicing an opinion. Ever.
No one has been banned at WS for simply simply disagreeing with me. Ever.

Of the 22 accounts that have been banned, at least 11 are the same person who kept trying to re-register after having been banned.

At least one was a "puppet" i.e., an alias, of another current member who knows that we have a policy against people having multiple accounts. The puppet was canned, the authentic account was not.

The remaining accounts were banned for spamming, blatant bigotry, trolling, or other offensive behavior. And by offensive behavior I mean flagrant disregard for the requested standards of conduct, like flaming undeserving new members as a matter of habit, calling them cunts, etc.

Of the people pictured in the LL thread, only one has been banned at WS. Our banned list is available for viewing http://wormwoodsociety.org/forums/index.php?act=members (select "Canned" from the "All Members" drop down list). At least one member who is among the pictured "forcibly silenced" hasn't had his membership changed in any way. He simply hasn't logged in to find that out.

Several accounts have had their posting privileges suspended (can log in and read, cannot post) or moderated (can log in, read, and post, but posts must be approved by a moderator before becoming visible) for disruptive behavior, pending assurances that they understand and agree to abide by our rules of conduct.

That leaves the ball in their court. If they choose not to proceed, they hardly have justification for accusing WS of "silencing" them.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 17 2010, 05:04 PM

You kicked out "spork" http://wormwoodsociety.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5619 but yet go on to justify this by pointing out that Kirk later said "I keep meaning to join so I can join the ranks of the banned. " and then tried to join. I don't know who "Spork" was but it wasn't Kirk and as a curious member of the public at large his short stay must not have made WS seem very accessible or friendly.

As for getting banned, it is nit-picking to go into the various levels of banning that you employ but the effect is the same. As I said earlier, you have every right to have your own private club or society or to be a member but that is not what this is and therein lies the difference between an open forum and a private club.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 17 2010, 05:35 PM

JP, get over the Spork thing. We know who it was. I have PMs from the person admitting he joined just to cause trouble.

Based on the IP address and past experience, the jump wasn't hard to make to assume it might have been Kirk. But I found out almost as soon as Gwydion made that post that it wasn't, and that information was passed along. It was an honest mistake and one most people would make if they were put in the same situation.

That's not what Gwydion was trying to justify either.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 17 2010, 05:39 PM

I saw that thread and I have to say I was surprised to see Kirk brought into it, and somewhat surprised that Spork was even banned. The post might have come from or through Virginia, but the writing was not at all Kirk. Spork was semi-humorous, but he'd have a long way to go to be the writer that Kirk is. I'm not trying to tell anybody how to run their forum, but just based upon the posts for not being "serious", Head Prosthesis would have been banned as soon as he got his toes in the door. That would been everybody's loss.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 17 2010, 05:44 PM

I don't think Gwydion read that much into writing style. But it's really kind of tangential to what we're talking about right now, isn't it?

For me, I'd love to see Kirk come over. I've told him so. He's got a lot to offer. Even with all of the things he's said to me, I hold no grudges. But I also expressed my reservations about the ramifications if he did join. Would he and Gwydion go at it all the time? Would he do what he said he wanted to do at LL? Would he act appropriately and then face the wrath of those who dislike the WS? Etc. Etc.

I told him I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it really wasn't my call.

I'm disappointed that he was brought into this conversation though.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 17 2010, 05:59 PM

QUOTE
But it's really kind of tangential to what we're talking about right now, isn't it?


Yes, but I didn't bring it up. What I posted was exactly what ran through my mind when I read the Spork thread at WWS. I wasn't going to say anything about it there or anywhere else, but since it came up here, I expressed what I thought back then.

I have no comment on the previous or current bad blood between Kirk and Hiram, or anybody else. They can settle it or continue it as they see fit.

As for myself, I'm trying a new way, and that involves being as fair as possible to everyone, and to avoid insulting anyone. But I still try to tell the truth as I see it.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 17 2010, 06:19 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 17 2010, 10:04 AM) *

As for getting banned, it is nit-picking to go into the various levels of banning that you employ but the effect is the same. As I said earlier, you have every right to have your own private club or society or to be a member but that is not what this is and therein lies the difference between an open forum and a private club.


Spot on. At the point one of the various restrictions are employed the chances of that person actually continuing to be an active participant are slim & none. Maybe that's not the intent by imposing the restrictions but it's the outcome.

JMFranc being kicked that many times is actually sorta funny…

Posted by: Leopold Apr 17 2010, 06:31 PM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 15 2010, 06:37 PM) *

Understand what I and some others had to dig through for YEARS, in obscure places, in foreign languages, at legal risk in some cases, and you may understand why I have no sympathy for people who want quick answers.



American distillers appreciate this more than you know. No FV and, in particular, the descriptions of the making of Artisianale= no Leopold Bros. Absinthe. Or, at the very least, it would have not really resembled what it is today. And that would have been a shame. Or at least that's my opinion. Even if some do not like it, I sure do enjoy making it.

So: thank you.




Posted by: eric Apr 17 2010, 06:31 PM

I spoke with Kirk around the time that he made the post at the lounge. He had no intention of being disruptive or causing any trouble in order to get banned. He just assumed that if he tried to join, he would be automatically banned before he ever got to post.
That was when I suggested that he contact Hiram via PM before attempting to register at WS. Hiram has already posted his reply in this thread.
I am certain that if allowed to join the WS, Kirk would respect and follow the code of conduct over there.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 17 2010, 07:19 PM

I've had my membership rights at H5 suspended for a period of 10 years, I am not able to long in and use my old account in any way. Even after that Gywdion had been maintaining that no one has ever been banned from H5 (or maybe I was just eliding the fine print). I was never told why except for a curt message that said he'd had enough. Even when I inquired after the fact I received no response. I'm surprised that he's now able to use the "B" word in public, counter to what he's consistently maintained in the past. Gwydion is a hypocrite according to my personal experience with what he says and does. And that casts a shadow over the veracity of the whole propaganda machine that he owns, IMHO.

Posted by: Grim Apr 17 2010, 07:30 PM

I don't think it could be that long, Tibro… the site has only been up since '04… and even then…

Attached Image

"The Wormwood Society is a private club for absinthe enthusiasts living in or near Seattle. Membership is by invitation only. Its purpose is to help promote accurate, current information about absinthe to aid in the repeal of the ban on absinthe in the US."

Of course, we weren't playing any real part in getting the ban lifted at the time… most of the first guys there were friends and drank HG together in real life, or interacted via that underground. Back then, I don't think there was so much an ambition for popularizing the forum as having our own playground (albeit with less opportunity for newbie-flaming). But I think Hiram's goal for his forum is nearly that of what it's become.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 17 2010, 07:52 PM

You misunderstand. I was told that my suspension would last for 10 years from the date I was ejected before I'd be able to sign in again. So, strictly speaking, I haven't been banned, just left to wander the desert. I was a member with several thousand posts before being vanquished.

The good thing is, amazing are the wonders that exist in the desert. I don't feel like I'm missing anything but the tedium. Similar to when I finally graduated from high school. Not exactly the same, but there are parallels.

Posted by: Grim Apr 17 2010, 08:41 PM

Ah, gotcha. I know exactly what it's like as I sat in suspension for a good spell myself…

QUOTE
http://siteanalytics.compete.com/wormwoodsociety.org+feeverte.net+louchedlounge.com/?metric=sess

Pretty close and getting closer.

QUOTE
Just look at the statistics regarding unique visits…


K'.

http://siteanalytics.compete.com/wormwoodsociety.org+straightbourbon.com+feeverte.net/

(I threw in a Straight Bourbon forum for shits-n'-giggles…)

I think the impact of internet forums on consumers, industry, all-but-Shabba's "press"… is dramatically inflated on these boards. And although I most certainly must be missing out on those late night calls of distress when there occurs a hiccup in the vast absinthe industrial complex, it doesn't bother me none, as I'd rather have one telephone conversation with Artemis about some old text we're translating than wishing a grip of cocktail experts and absintheurs "Happy Birthday!" Don't get me wrong, for painfully nostalgic reasons, I'll still stroll through the WS now and again… but it ain't the same. FV is home.

Granted, there's lots of noise going on there at WS - and little discussion here - but for all that discussion, I rarely see some ray of light break through the clouds of the pseudo-educational, social networking that goes on there. And for what little attempts at order may constrain the fun, it still doesn't fly loose and edgy… not a creative, anguished place to talk shit and learn; no flashes of brilliance, just echos here and there carried through the FeeVerte hinterland.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 17 2010, 08:47 PM

QUOTE(Grim @ Apr 17 2010, 12:30 PM) *

"The Wormwood Society is a private club for absinthe enthusiasts living in or near Seattle. Membership is by invitation only. Its purpose is to help promote accurate, current information about absinthe to aid in the repeal of the ban on absinthe in the US."



The new direction:
QUOTE
PURPOSE
The Wormwood Society is a non-profit educational and consumer advocacy organization focused on providing current, historically and scientifically accurate information about absinthe, helping to reform the laws impacting absinthe in the United States and encouraging the healthy enjoyment of a safe, rewarding and historically interesting beverage.

We also provide guidance for spirits industry members who desire to produce and market authentic absinthe in a fair, honest and socially responsible way, including providing historically documented formulas and processes for making absinthe in the true Belle Époque style.


I'm curious about the second paragraph. I didn't realize WS had expanded into consulting. Who actually is assigned the task of helping a spirits industry member that requests information on formulas and processes? This is all done at no cost to the member if they are in the "spirits industry"?

Posted by: Grim Apr 17 2010, 09:03 PM

QUOTE
We also provide guidance for spirits industry members who desire to produce and market authentic absinthe in a fair, honest and socially responsible way, including providing historically documented formulas and processes for making absinthe in the true Belle Époque style.


When did it stop being called Oxygenée's "Books IV"?

Posted by: Artemis Apr 17 2010, 09:22 PM

QUOTE
I'd rather have one telephone conversation with Artemis about some old text we're translating


You know very well I usually say I'm not interested in those tedious old tomes anymore and if you don't have some gossip to convey, let's move on. You're a persistent one, though. Thank you for nudging me now and then to see if I'm alive.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 17 2010, 09:27 PM

QUOTE
American distillers appreciate this more than you know.


Well I honestly don't know, so I can only surmise. Thank you for your post, it's much appreciated as well.

Posted by: thegreenimp Apr 17 2010, 10:37 PM

Ack!….wrong thread.

Posted by: Leopold Apr 17 2010, 10:57 PM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 17 2010, 03:27 PM) *

QUOTE
American distillers appreciate this more than you know.


Well I honestly don't know, so I can only surmise.



Ah, well, what I mean is that i know full well that the US absinthe distillers (who don't post here, obviously) have used FV for research, but never thanked you all for the dirty work. Call me a geek, but I think that it's really cool the way that everyone got together (willingly, or no) to reconstruct the way absinthe should be made, and the way it should be taste. I'm left wondering if this would ever have happened without the internet. Absinthe was reborn out of this community, and I think that this is pretty cool.

Posted by: Marlow Apr 17 2010, 11:00 PM

So, absinthe was once the spirit of the Industrial Revolution, and now it's the spirit of the Internet Revolution…strangely appropriate.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 17 2010, 11:28 PM

QUOTE(Tibro @ Apr 17 2010, 03:19 PM) *
I was never told why except for a curt message that said he'd had enough. Even when I inquired after the fact I received no response.
You are so full of lies, I can't believe it. You really don't want us to dig this all up. You know exactly why you were banned. We've still got all of the PMs too. You also know that the '10 year' ban is only put in place as a punitive measure until you decide to come back and play nice.

QUOTE
Gwydion is a hypocrite
Pot, meet kettle.


QUOTE(Tibro @ Apr 17 2010, 03:52 PM) *
I was a member with several thousand posts before being vanquished.
Yeah, until you went loony and started personally attacking people and accusing them of completely untrue things. At that point, your value as a productive member (which you certainly were, by the way) diminished.

QUOTE
The good thing is, amazing are the wonders that exist in the desert. I don't feel like I'm missing anything but the tedium.
Yeah, you just moved along to TARN where you increased your hateful attacks 10-fold. To the point where even the lax moderation over there told you to cut it out. You only stopped once people started ignoring you and you didn't get the attention you crave. You must have even embarrased yourself, since you went back and erased a large majority of your spiteful posts.

I guess we'll always have FV though. heart.gif

But it all doesn't matter. You'll selectively remember what you want. Just enough to suit the opinion you want to have about 'H5'.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 17 2010, 11:43 PM

I wuv wen you get upset. Stroke me some, big boy.

Stop it s'more.

Oh, please, stop it s'more.

I beg of you.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 17 2010, 11:56 PM

The preceding post given as a hypothetical example of the substantive differences of what can be posted here and what "might" insight indignation at that other website.

"Might" does not equal "Right".

Posted by: speedle Apr 18 2010, 12:31 AM

Yes, but it did teach me to ignore you, "over there", haiku skills notwithstanding.

But you know what, does anybody remember the point of this thread anymore?

Posted by: Stroller Apr 18 2010, 12:41 AM

I'm waiting to see when Godwin's law kicks in.

Posted by: Wild Bill Turkey Apr 18 2010, 01:15 AM

I can't believe you'd say that. That kind of thinking makes you as bad as Hitler.

Posted by: dakini_painter Apr 18 2010, 01:49 AM

I'm glad Artemis visits here even if just to have some conversation.

I'm glad I've had the chance to meet great people from all the forums.

QUOTE
But you know what, does anybody remember the point of this thread anymore?


My forum is better than your forum, neener-neener?

Posted by: Artemis Apr 18 2010, 01:50 AM

QUOTE
Ah, well, what I mean is that i know full well that the US absinthe distillers (who don't post here, obviously) have used FV for research, but never thanked you all for the dirty work.


I got you - I should have said that you're the first one who's admitted anything like that here, as far as I know. I didn't mean that I was still surmising AFTER your post, as though I had reason to doubt what you said. Thanks again, on behalf of people too numerous to mention, most of whom contributed more than I. All I do is play with words.



Posted by: Artemis Apr 18 2010, 02:18 AM

QUOTE
I'm glad Artemis visits here even if just to have some conversation.


Thanks. I'm glad you do the voodoo that you do so well.

Posted by: Hiram Apr 18 2010, 02:27 AM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 17 2010, 09:04 AM) *
You kicked out "spork" http://wormwoodsociety.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5619
The worst you can come up with is that I may have been mistaken about someone's identity? I didn't kick him out because I thought he was Kirk, I kicked him out because he was being a dick. Since we know he intentionally joined for that purpose, it's hardly fair to complain when he got canned for it.
QUOTE
but yet go on to justify this…
I wasn't talking about spork, you were, and I don't have to justify anything about it. He was being a dick and we knew why.
QUOTE
… by pointing out that Kirk later said "I keep meaning to join so I can join the ranks of the banned." and then tried to join.
No. Try to keep up. Kirk said he wanted to join so he could "join the ranks of the banned" clearly indicating his intent. I pointed that out to illustrate that his request was disingenuous.

Even though I clearly told Kirk that I was not rejecting his request, this is now being cited as an example of preemptive banning. In spite of the obvious subterfuge, I still was willing to give Kirk the benefit of the doubt. But since I didn't react the way he hoped I would, you and others will most likely ignore the inconvenient truth and add The Preemptive Banning of Kirk to your canon of lies.
QUOTE
As for getting banned, it is nit-picking to go into the various levels of banning that you employ but the effect is the same.
It's nit-picking to talk about the difference between speeding tickets and state penitentiaries too, I guess. Still, there aren't various levels of banning. In my post above I made it pretty clear what the punitive measures were. If someone chooses not to proceed with reconciliation it's not banning, and my responsibility in the matter ends there.

If your driver's license is suspended because you didn't pay for a speeding ticket, all you have to do is pay the fine and you're back on the road. But if you choose instead to leave the country and go where the traffic laws are more lax, are you going to tell people you got deported for a traffic violation?

Quit being such narcissistic pussies and take responsibility for your own actions.

Posted by: Patlow Apr 18 2010, 05:40 AM

"You also know that the '10 year' ban is only put in place as a punitive measure until you decide to come back and play nice."

LOL!!!

Posted by: Hiram Apr 18 2010, 06:35 AM

The suspension has to have a time set. Putting it that far out ensures that it won't expire before any discussion toward reconciliation has taken place. Or did you think that once it was set at ten years, we didn't have the ability to revoke it?

If someone sincerely wants to remain active and agrees to respect our standards, they're always welcome to discuss it with us, but they have to make the move.

Posted by: EdouardPerneau Apr 18 2010, 07:22 AM

anyway absinthe forums in ten years gonna be so 2000's

Posted by: Stroller Apr 18 2010, 07:26 AM

Out of curiosity, who bestowed the title of Premier to WS? One of several things I noticed when when I went to what I would consider the front of the house. Usually I just go straight to the forums.

Attached Image

I'm also interested in the consulting (I think the word used was guidance) that WS does with those in the spirit industry. I had asked earlier and assumed Shabba would respond.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 18 2010, 09:16 AM

QUOTE(Hiram @ Apr 18 2010, 08:35 AM) *

If someone sincerely wants to remain active and agrees to respect our standards, they're always welcome to discuss it with us, but they have to make the move.

Funny, when I asked for clarification about the "suspension" by e-mail I received no reply.

So, do your standards include not being able to grind out in the wheels of your propaganda machine the belief that you and Shabba are pompous windbags? Or do you consider that politics?

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 18 2010, 11:50 AM

Stroller, that question was answered ages ago, in a different thread. I feel no need to go back and rehash it, since you're only interested in finding yet another way to question or attack the WS.

And Tibro, you knew exactly what the suspension meant and how to fix it. Don't act naive.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 18 2010, 12:42 PM

Yes, Tibro, simply crawl and simper and make public apologies and beg for the privilege of rejoining by making the appropriate self-criticism and promises of rehabilitation and loyalty . . .

Posted by: Donnie Darko Apr 18 2010, 12:43 PM

QUOTE(Hiram @ Apr 17 2010, 10:27 PM) *

Quit being such narcissistic pussies and take responsibility for your own actions.


Man, how are journalists ever going to learn about absinthe if they have to wade through such flaming and vitriol?

Posted by: Stroller Apr 18 2010, 02:11 PM

Shabba, I'm sorry you think my questions are some super secret way to attack WS. Sometimes a question isn't anything more than a question. If you don't care to answer me then could you clarify it in the purpose statement on the WS website. There are licensed distillers on both websites that make Absinthe. If there is something available to them besides the what is open to the regular members, I'm sure they would be interested. Hell, I'm curious (hence the question).

As for the word "Premier"… Unless you correct me, I'll assume that title was made up to attract visitors.

Posted by: Kirk Apr 18 2010, 02:18 PM

. . .

Posted by: Kirk Apr 18 2010, 02:22 PM

. . .

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 18 2010, 04:47 PM

QUOTE(Stroller @ Apr 18 2010, 10:11 AM) *
Sometimes a question isn't anything more than a question.

Then maybe it would be better suited in a thread that isn't consumed with attacking the WS. Then the intention might not be misconstrued.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 18 2010, 04:56 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 18 2010, 08:42 AM) *

Yes, Tibro, simply crawl and simper and make public apologies and beg for the privilege of rejoining by making the appropriate self-criticism and promises of rehabilitation and loyalty . . .

Man, JP, I've never known you to be so melodramatic.

Oh wait. I forgot the other threads where you also routinely exaggerate about the wrongdoings of the WS. Nevermind.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 18 2010, 05:40 PM

The intention of the thread (I thought) was to discuss differences between the sites.

I'm unsure if Oxy has provided guidance or engaged in any type of consulting to those members who are licensed distillers beyond what is available to all on this site without some form of compensation. WS seems to be very different in that it offers guidance (consulting if you will) to licensed distillers without any form of compensation. This would further the sites claim of being "non-profit educational and consumer advocacy organization". A very big difference between the sites.

Don't fear what you don't understand. abs-cheers.gif

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 18 2010, 05:43 PM

Actually I was paraphrasing Hiram

QUOTE
If someone chooses not to proceed with reconciliation it's not banning, and my responsibility in the matter ends there.

If your driver's license is suspended because you didn't pay for a speeding ticket, all you have to do is pay the fine and you're back on the road. But if you choose instead to leave the country and go where the traffic laws are more lax, are you going to tell people you got deported for a traffic violation?

Quit being such narcissistic pussies and take responsibility for your own actions.

ie. "contrition and repentance."

I agree that this thread has been more to elucidate differences between the forums. I don't think Oxy charges consultant fees to distillers as some can and have gotten plenty of advice and guidance here for free (often behind the scenes).

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 18 2010, 06:15 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 18 2010, 01:43 PM) *
I agree that this thread has been more to elucidate differences between the forums.

And to spread lies/half-truths/misinformation and make personal attacks

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 18 2010, 01:43 PM) *

Actually I was paraphrasing Hiram

Not so much paraphrasing as exaggerating.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 18 2010, 06:20 PM

QUOTE(Stroller @ Apr 18 2010, 01:40 PM) *

The intention of the thread (I thought) was to discuss differences between the sites.

Absolutely, but as you can see, things have gotten a bit off topic. The atmosphere isn't realy one of 'fact finding' anymore.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 18 2010, 06:29 PM

This site is a wealth of information to licensed distillers. I was thinking more in the lines of a distillery such as Anchor Distilling Co. wanting assistance in developing an Absinthe. They could search this site and I'm sure Oxy would answer questions but there is a point were your time becomes a commodity and an exchange would take place. I believe that would not happen at WS, their assistance would continue without compensation for time involved.

Several years ago I was contacted by the Korean organizers for the 2002 World Cup asking questions. I met with them several times and answered questions and gave my opinions on the venue maps. I was happy to help out but when they sent a 5 page questionnaire that amounted to building an operations outline for them I told them we needed a consulting contract before I continued. They were asking for a large time commitment from me. I would hazard a guess and say Oxy might have done the same thing if he were in my shoes.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 18 2010, 06:32 PM

As I said before, this was already addressed almost 2 years ago. Not going to rehash it.

The quibbling is just irritating at this point.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 18 2010, 06:47 PM

I was asking two questions. I could rephrase to make it easier to answer.

Is a member of the Advisory Board assigned the task of helping a spirits industry member that requests information on formulas and processes? Yes or No.

Does Hiram personally handle the task of helping a spirits industry member that requests information on formulas and processes? Yes or No.

This is all done at no cost to the member if they are in the "spirits industry"? Yes or No.

I'm not asking for long drawn out answers to the questions, just yes or no.


Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 18 2010, 06:52 PM

That's three questions. wink.gif

1) No. There isn't one specific personal designated.
2) Not that I'm aware of.
3) I'd imagine that depends on the depth of feedback, as you mentioned in your hypothetical.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 18 2010, 07:02 PM

Rephrasing caused me to break the first question into two to make it easier (yes or no) for you to answer. My apologies for caused you the grief associated with answering a third question. Thank you.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 18 2010, 07:21 PM

Yes, I know. Just trying to lighten the mood. Jeez.

Posted by: Leopold Apr 18 2010, 07:32 PM

QUOTE(Stroller @ Apr 18 2010, 12:29 PM) *

This site is a wealth of information to licensed distillers. I was thinking more in the lines of a distillery such as Anchor Distilling Co. wanting assistance in developing an Absinthe. They could search this site and I'm sure Oxy would answer questions but there is a point were your time becomes a commodity and an exchange would take place. I believe that would not happen at WS, their assistance would continue without compensation for time involved.


We're certainly not of the heft of an Anchor Steam, but I can tell you how our Absinthe was handled.

I introduced myself here at FV first, as that's where I found the most practical info. There's a page on the making of L'Artisanale (although I didn't know that that's what it was until quite sometime later) which includes photos, which were very important to me. I could see colors, the difference between quality herbs and swag, etc. I wanted to thank Oxy and the FV members for posting the story of L'Art, and for other discussions on herbs etc. that helped put up the sign posts for making a nice absinthe. I also purchased a bottle of Jade Edouard, which I still consider to be a world-class spirit. This helped me with the sensory portion of the program. Thank you, Mr. Breaux.

After my introduction at FV, Hiram invited me over to the WS, and Oxy sent me a nice PM. Both offered any assistance that they could, including criticism of my absinthe and my production methods. Pretty nice stuff, if you ask me. Oxy had had my spirit at the International Wine & Spirits competition, and remembered evaluating it, no doubt, because it looked like I had used a mix between spinach and seaweed for the coloring/aromatizing step. (Ugh. embarrassing). He was really (really) polite with his evaluation, and was a big help.

What's nice is that I sent samples to members of both the FV and the WS, and it was determined, to my dismay that I was steeping the hyssop, lemon balm, and petit for waaaaay too long, and that I need to correct it. The criticism was heard, and the procedure was corrected. Thankfully we now have what, I hope, is an absinthe that many truly enjoy.

Members from both sites offered any assistance that they could, with no expectation of payment or free goods, or anything of the sort. I had a great experience with both sites, and now we have a nice absinthe in two bottle sizes. Our sales have been slowly and steadily growing since we started. I think that we're at about a 30% year to year growth in sales, and nearly all of that has been, as I have stated many times, by simply establishing ourself as a high quality local absinthe brand. In other words, our sales are almost exclusively in Colorado.

Hope this helps, Stroller.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 18 2010, 07:37 PM

It does and it's about what I would expect from members of both forums. In the end, it's about Absinthe.

Posted by: Leopold Apr 18 2010, 08:01 PM

Exactly.

I'm a big, big proponent of the theory that a rising tide lifts all the boats. Both in the business world, and on a personal level.


Posted by: Absomphe Apr 18 2010, 09:40 PM

QUOTE(Stroller @ Apr 18 2010, 12:26 AM) *

Premier


In the cat world, that's a pretty euphemism for "neutered".


Just sayin'…

Posted by: Hiram Apr 18 2010, 09:42 PM

QUOTE(Stroller @ Apr 18 2010, 10:29 AM) *
… but there is a point were your time becomes a commodity and an exchange would take place. I believe that would not happen at WS, their assistance would continue without compensation for time involved.

Interesting. Why would you believe that?

QUOTE(Stroller @ Apr 18 2010, 10:47 AM) *
Is a member of the Advisory Board assigned the task of helping a spirits industry member that requests information on formulas and processes? Yes or No.

No.

QUOTE
Does Hiram personally handle the task of helping a spirits industry member that requests information on formulas and processes? Yes or No.

If you mean "has Hiram personally handled the task", yes, I have. If you mean am I some sort of WS de facto "consultant" then no, and it's not at all common for me to do so.

QUOTE
This is all done at no cost to the member if they are in the "spirits industry"? Yes or No.

Life is fortunately not as simple as yes or no. A truthful (and useful) answer depends on what "this is all done" entails. The curious use of quotes on "spirits industry" also appears to imply another question.

The reference on the site to providing "guidance for spirits industry members who desire to produce and market authentic absinthe" is not there to attract consulting gigs, but to inform industry members that educating them, as well as the consumer, is also a part of our mission. It was inspired by the unfortunate number of producers who did not take Todd's approach, but decided to just wing it and then join up at launch time to promote bad absinthe.

If the term "industry member" confused you, it doesn't refer to WS members who are in the industry. "Industry member" is the language used in the trade for people and businesses who are professionally engaged in the beverage alcohol business.

QUOTE
I'm not asking for long drawn out answers to the questions, just yes or no.

You sound like a prosecuting attorney. That tactic is generally used to control testimony and avoid the introduction of inconvenient facts, a real answer, for instance.

Frankly, I rather enjoy watching you all make asses of yourselves in public, but now and again I feel the need to introduce an actual fact or two.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 18 2010, 10:11 PM

I think Stroller's questions are valid. The only time you come here is when you feel you have to defend WS and your business reputation.

To avoid feeding your enormous paranoia any further, or that of your posse, lets just say that the difference between this site and WS is that this is an information resource with an open forum attached whereas your venture is a private organization with a mission and dues paying membership levels. Both no doubt have something to offer and serve overlapping communities. Some folks who feel more comfortable in a controlled environment will prefer WS to this place as opposed to those who enjoy the raucous give and take found here.

Posted by: Kirk Apr 18 2010, 10:47 PM

QUOTE
Then several weeks later PMed me his disingenuous request to join. Nevertheless, my response to Kirk was honest and frank. Here is my reply in its entirety, to which Kirk has not responded.

It was a genuine request to join. I apologize for not responding, I didn't know what to say, you are asking for something I can't give. My comment at the Lounge was supposed to be funny, my request, not.
No hard feelings though.

Hiram:
There is a divide in the absinthe community and without intending to I may have helped create it. I would like to do something to help heal that or clear the air. I think I can be a good contributing member of your forum and I would like to join.
I have never registered there under any other name. I don't know if I will fit in or find a home there but I intend to make an honest effort and I don't foresee any problems. I won't attempt to register until I hear back from you, no hard feelings if you say no.
Sincerely,
Kirk

Kirk,

Please wait until you're stone cold sober to read and respond to this. Seriously.

I'm going to be completely frank. I sincerely appreciate you reaching out, but I think you'll understand if I'm somewhat suspicious. This looks an awful lot like a Trojan Horse from where I'm sitting.

First of all, there is no divide in the community. Many people travel freely between forums. The divide exists in the minds of a tiny handful of people who dislike me and what I'm doing with WS. I'm fine with that, so long as they keep their reasons for that dislike honest and truthful. Unfortunately, that's not often the case because their real reasons aren't very pretty.

I've spent some time over the last several days going over many of the things you've said about me and WS in the last four years, and I just can't figure out what could have prompted such a change of heart.

You've said some incredibly hateful and untrue things to me and about me, and ridiculed and dismissed the work I've done building an alternative absinthe venue, but now you want to be a part of it. This is incomprehensible to me.

Have you finally realized that the things you were saying weren't true? The things you and others have accused me of have damaged my reputation and good name in the eyes of newcomers at FV. This isn't about the forums, it's personal. That's my real name out there being smeared in hundreds of posts. Who's going to un-do all of that damage?

What will your pals at FV and LL do if you join WS? Is this going to start a whole new era of bullshit? Because, to tell the truth, I'm pretty happy with the way things are; we're doing pretty well over at my place.

I'm not rejecting your request, but I am asking you if you fully understand what will be required to make this all good, and if you sincerely believe you were wrong about me and my work at WS.

Sincerely,
Gwydion

QUOTE

Posted by: Donnie Darko Apr 18 2010, 11:32 PM

You know what I wish would happen? I wish that really interesting talented people like Todd and Dakini who are saying interesting things of real substance in this thread would repeatedly get drowned out by a bunch of endless inane bickering. That would be awesome. I also think Lifetime Channel should do more shows about that woman…

To turn the topic away from this incredibly interesting back-and-forth squawking for just a moment, I'm glad that both Todd and Dakini were able to achieve a dream of theirs with a little help from various resources here. Obviously they put in the real hard labor, folks here just offered up some polish. If I had the bucks my shelf would never run out of DP or Leopold. Here endeth the positive commentary.

Now you gentleman can return to your far more important pissing contest. Whoever gets the most wee on his shoes loses, and you all obviously have very full bladders.

But then again, I'm glad that at least one is allowed to have a pissing contest here. Lord knows it hurts when you're bladder is full but you're force to hold it…

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 18 2010, 11:36 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 18 2010, 06:11 PM) *
and dues paying membership levels.

You make it seem like people have to pay dues. They don't. They donate money if they see fit. I do remember a time when people here were asked to donate money to keep the place running. Luckily, you now are in a better position.

The number of dues-paying members is small. And it's not even enough to cover the expenses of the site, let alone the projects we all do in real life, such as tastings, seminars, educational events, etc.

Many of the members who are most active in the offline efforts are ones who do NOT have positions in the industry, and who do not have a vested interest in any one brand. Most of them do it out of their own pockets, and do it because they believe in what we're doing and because they enjoy it.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 18 2010, 11:52 PM

Hiram,

Sorry, I thought "We also provide guidance for spirits industry members" meant members of your club that were also in the spirits industry. I'm aware of what spirits industry means but thank you for response.

My time becomes a commodity when requests for assistance exceed my free time & cause me to take time from the work I'm currently involved in. If I were independently wealthy I might take a different stance but I'm far from wealthy & the small company I work at consumes an obscene amount of my time.

Posted by: Marlow Apr 18 2010, 11:59 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 18 2010, 06:11 PM) *

lets just say that the difference between this site and WS is that this is an information resource with an open forum attached whereas your venture is a private organization with a mission and dues paying membership levels.

I would argue that both WS and FV are information resources with open fora attached. Yes, the WS forum is comparatively strict in matters of decorum, but I have seen no evidence that this unduly restricts free expression. After all, throughout much of the "free" (or "ungoverned") Internet, dissent is dealt with very simply: forum regulars rhetorically savage the dissenter. I suspect this phenomenon quashes a lot more debate than we realize. WS is at least free from that problem.

As for "dues" and "membership levels," one should not attach too much importance to these. No one at WS is required to pay to participate, nor has there ever been pressure put on members to pay. Some of us (I am one) choose to chip in, to help ensure that an important resource remains on line, but we acquire no special privileges for doing so. WS is thus as public an organization as most other internet fora of its type.

QUOTE
Both no doubt have something to offer and serve overlapping communities. Some folks who feel more comfortable in a controlled environment will prefer WS to this place as opposed to those who enjoy the raucous give and take found here.


Yes, I quite agree.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 18 2010, 11:59 PM

QUOTE(Stroller @ Apr 18 2010, 07:52 PM) *

I'm far from wealthy & the small company I work at consumes an obscene amount if my time.


Having 'the time' is relative. I certainly don't have much based on my business either. I force myself to make the time. But I do all of these things regarding absinthe because I love it.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 19 2010, 12:16 AM

QUOTE
I would argue that both WS and FV are information resources with open fora attached.


I've always looked at it (here anyway) the other way around. The forum was always ground zero, and the other pages grew out of that. I've gone years without looking at the back pages, and frankly, have never looked at any of the back (from my perspective) pages at WWS at all. But my perspective is different from most people, I guess. Whatever serves the individual need is fine.

QUOTE
After all, throughout much of the "free" (or "ungoverned") Internet, dissent is dealt with very simply: forum regulars rhetorically savage the dissenter. I suspect this phenomenon quashes a lot more debate than we realize. WS is at least free from that problem.


Yes, but it cuts both ways. Some people would prefer to be savaged by dissenters than restrained from having the opportunity. Heavy moderation quashes debate preemptively, for better or worse.

Posted by: speedle Apr 19 2010, 01:11 AM

Then of course, there are the people who would rather be the dissenters, without being savaged.

All depends on your point of view, I suppose. For better or worse.

Besides which, I've been a member here for roughly 4 years I guess, WS about the same. During all that time, these "cross-forum eruptions" happen regularly, if in frequently. At this point in the game, after nearly half a decade, isn't it time to just stop giving a shit? Who the fuck cares? Live and let live, for crissakes.

Lastly, and I've given this advice before with no discernible result, if I were either Shabba or Hiram, I would have stopped putting the slightest effort into "defense" at least a couple of years ago. There is simply no point. I know this, for an absolute fact, because it is directly relate-able to my situation where I work. I used to run around trying to in some way, small or large, to effect changes in, or affect positively, the opinion of some of the citizenry in my little country I work for and in. Finally though, I gave up, because you know what? Fuck em', make shit HAPPEN, then stand back. Which, for better or worse, is what I do.

Success is the only revenge, the only rebuttal, and the only recourse. For BOTH forums, and for that matter for any "other" absinthe forums that may, from time to time, pop up and attempt to do something in the space.

Just my two cents.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 19 2010, 04:02 AM

Define success, at least in terms of these fora in question. Possibly it depends to some degree on how you define forum.

QUOTE
Main Entry: fo·rum
Pronunciation: \ˈfȯr-əm\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural forums also fo·ra \-ə\
Etymology: Latin; akin to Latin foris outside, fores door — more at door
Date: 15th century

1 a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b : a public meeting place for open discussion c : a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas
2 : a judicial body or assembly : court
3 a : a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b : a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities


I know exactly which definition I favor.

QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 19 2010, 02:16 AM) *

Heavy moderation…

"Extreme moderation" conveys the irony better.

Posted by: mgs Apr 19 2010, 06:36 AM

QUOTE(Stroller @ Apr 18 2010, 11:40 AM) *

The intention of the thread (I thought) was to discuss differences between the sites.


Yes. I am 100% sure that the intention of this thread was to discuss the differences between the forums at FV and WS. I was even naive to think that both forums could merge !

cheers,

- Marcelo

Posted by: dakini_painter Apr 19 2010, 10:34 AM

As a private person with a public face (my absinthes and company) I get a fair number of inquiries from people interested in entering the distilling business. Perhaps they see it as a way of legalizing their hobby, perhaps they're just intensely interested in spirits, and perhaps they believe that spirits being a common commodity if they make good ones they can make a living. Maybe a bit of all three.

I was quite surprised by the number of inquiries. The average has been over 1 per month. With the Great Recession, the number went up a bit. Initially I was able to respond, and some people that seemed serious and had specific questions, I did my best to answer them. Currently, I don't have that time and so I simply let people know that they are entering a heavily regulated industry and refer them to the ADI web site and forum.

Posted by: Provenance Apr 19 2010, 03:33 PM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 16 2010, 10:56 AM) *
I've often wondered if I overrate the value of this forum to the rebirth of absinthe,

I'll provide my views since I have a different perspective; I came FV after most of heavy lifting had been accomplished, was never one of the heavy lifters and, thus, can perhaps be more objective. Has FV been essential to the rebirth of absinthe? Yes. Looking back through the old threads and having spoken with some but not enough of the key people, I have no doubt that if Kallisti hadn't started this forum, if the many participants who played various roles in research, experimentation and bringing people together hadn't been here, there would no absinthe rebirth. Everyone who enjoys modern absinthe owes a debt to FV even if they never heard of it.

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Apr 16 2010, 04:00 PM) *
Unfortunately, many otherwise intelligent people are just as you say Prov "don't have a clue" when it comes to absinthe. I think it's a good thing that there are places on the internet whether it be WS or FV where they can find information of different brands, on proper preparation, history of the spirit.

Some of the memes surrounding absinthe are
***
o you drink it straight (or with little water, perhaps on the rocks)

Unquestionably true. I was amused when Newsweak ran this photo a couple of week ago.
IPB Image

But, as you explained more astutely than I did, "Sadly, if people have the preconceived notions, they don't want to be told otherwise."

Some folks will misunderstand absinthe, they always have, they always will. Their loss. What of it?

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 17 2010, 05:43 AM) *
I would argue that absinthe is a cause, at least for now. In most of the world, as best I can tell, there is no legal definition of absinthe and thus no protection for the identity of the drink (the recent Swiss faux pas notwithstanding). As it stands now, one could dissolve green crayon in Everclear and sell it as "absinthe," and there is a lot of economic muscle out there with a stake in ensuring that this situation continues. It is in the interest of every true absinthe enthusiast that accurate information be propagated…the less of a following there is for LTV, the better. Does anyone want to see liquor store shelves populated with LTV and Absentee, to the exclusion of Delaware Phoenix or Pacifique? Educating the public is one of the few things we can do to prevent that.

As I've said before, people will make and drink no matter what. No "education" will change that nor does the popularity of crap diminish the market for Delaware Phoenix or Pacifique. Even if it did, I have no more right to try and ban LTV or Tunel Black just because they're not really absinthe than I should try to ban McDonald'z [or insert disliked product of choice here] because it's not really food.

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 17 2010, 05:43 AM) *

For the record, I like the atmosphere at WS. I've always felt I could say whatever I wanted to there, and I've never been censured for disagreeing with Hiram or anyone else.

For the record, I never found the viciousness, personal attacks, bullying and ugliness here, at the Lounge, or at Jack's old sour beer and absinthe forum that I saw at WS. Perhaps it's changed.

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 17 2010, 08:20 AM) *
QUOTE
They don't even have to touch the forum to get information.
Are you intentionally acting dense?

Notable if only because I don't think I've ever seen Sixer acused [sic] of that before. Everything else, yes.

QUOTE
PURPOSE
The Wormwood Society is a non-profit educational and consumer advocacy organization
QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 18 2010, 03:36 PM) *
You make it seem like people have to pay dues. They don't. They donate money if they see fit.

Since WS publicly uses the phrases "non-profit educational" and solicits "donations" I can only assume that they are appropriately registered with federal authorities. Otherwise my unsolicited advice is to check with competent counsel. Certain federal agencies may possibly become somewhat unhappy if they think someone is misrepresenting their nonprofit status.

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 17 2010, 03:28 PM) *
We've still got all of the PMs too.

That's the first time I've ever seen a collective term used for access to PMs. I always thought that they were limited to the specific recipient. I learn something new everyday. That's what makes life grand.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 04:11 PM

QUOTE(Provenance @ Apr 19 2010, 11:33 AM) *
QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 17 2010, 03:28 PM) *
We've still got all of the PMs too.

That's the first time I've ever seen a collective term used for access to PMs. I always thought that they were limited to the specific recipient. I learn something new everyday.

Way to twist it around yet again.

Pan Buh had PM conversations with more than one person. My point was that each of us have retained our PMs.

Posted by: Hiram Apr 19 2010, 04:51 PM

QUOTE
Since WS publicly uses the phrases "non-profit educational" and solicits "donations" I can only assume that they are appropriately registered with federal authorities. Otherwise my unsolicited advice is to check with competent counsel. Certain federal agencies may possibly become somewhat unhappy if they think someone is misrepresenting their nonprofit status.

Clearly you know little about the topic. My advice would be to stop bluffing and read up on the http://tinyurl.com/y7nxtgj.
QUOTE
Has FV been essential to the rebirth of absinthe? Yes. Looking back through the old threads and having spoken with some but not enough of the key people, I have no doubt that if Kallisti hadn't started this forum, if the many participants who played various roles in research, experimentation and bringing people together hadn't been here, there would no absinthe rebirth.


This forum, or rather what it used to be, was relevant to the birth of online absinthe culture, and that definitely fed into the great improvement of commercial absinthe, but not the rebirth of absinthe itself. As unfortunate as it may be, that distinction lies with Hills and La Fée. We may not like what was done with it at the time, but that's the fact. Hill's launched via Green Bohemia in 1998, when this forum was less than a year old and not even really a forum yet. La Fée splashed onto the scene in 1999, and that's what brought the world's attention to absinthe, and began to create a meaningfully sized market.

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 18 2010, 02:11 PM) *
I think Stroller's questions are valid. The only time you come here is when you feel you have to defend WS and your business reputation.

What's your point? I don't have the time or inclination to deal with this childish crap on a regular basis, but sometimes I feel the need to set a few facts straight. Why else would I come to a place where I'm clearly not appreciated or respected? I don't like the noise here. It's kind of like a party where you enjoy some of the people and would like to hang out with them, but you always wind up fending off an angry drunk who swears you slept with his skanky girlfriend and won't be convinced otherwise. That's what you guys are like. Do you understand the concept of "not my kind of party"?

QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 18 2010, 04:16 PM) *
Yes, but it cuts both ways. Some people would prefer to be savaged by dissenters than restrained from having the opportunity. Heavy moderation quashes debate preemptively, for better or worse.

Heavy moderation can do that, I agree, but I think you'll find that the "heavy moderation" claim against WS has been greatly exaggerated. The only time a moderator steps in is when someone is either trolling or becomes abusive and resorts to personal attacks and insults. Even then it's just a gentle reminder to remain civil. Trolls are dumped without a second's hesitation.

In this case the debate is not quashed, but it is perhaps lengthened and generally produces more light than heat.

Our membership in general seems to value this more than being able to call someone a cunt or a cocksucker and resorting to ad hominem attacks, hyperbole and slander. That's really all our moderation policies have ever been intended to prevent.

The problem started when Jack decided to find out where the boundaries were in spite of multiple entreaties to dial it back a few notches. He found out where the boundaries were, got banned, refused offers of reconciliation, and swore to never return. His sycophants have waged a one-sided feud ever since.

QUOTE
Define success, at least in terms of these fora in question. Possibly it depends to some degree on how you define forum.

I'm so glad you asked. How about "a place on the internet where people gather to discuss a particular topic or group of related topics"?

In that case, I'd define success the way it is in real life: in terms of the balance of relevance and numbers. If the forum consistently addresses the relevant topics in productive discussion, attracts greater numbers of voices who make positive contributions, and sustains growth and health, it is successful. Take WS for example:

WS has consistently remained relevant to the topic and has more members, and more active members than any other absinthe venue on the web. It is the most popular, most well-known, busiest, largest, and fastest growing absinthe forum on the web.

We consistently have more unique traffic hits, are regularly reported in the mainstream media and are used as an information resource by media, bars and restaurants, liquor stores and distributors, and government agencies.

Considering that WS has only been around for half the time FV has, that's not too shabby.

That's how I define success.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 19 2010, 04:54 PM

Sounds like a business model your talking about.

What I'm really curious about is the rational for issuing a suspension for 10 years, instead of outright banning. There's no way for a suspended member to check a PM any more than a banned person can.

All I can figure is that the adversarial bored at WS would prefer to say that haven't banned people, in a de jure kind of way, while de facto that's what's happened. No access to the account can be had and any further discussion takes place by e-mail, not PM.

In the e-mail notification of my suspension Hiram said that my feces fatigued him. I replied with a query by e-mail and received no response. Maybe the subject header must state "Apology enclosed" or some such response to even be looked at. My assumption was and is that a mutual reconciliation is not what Hiram wants. He'd rather see me grovel for insulting him and his forum. I may be wrong, but I gave up holding my breath waiting for an answer.

I admit, I kind of like things on the extreme side. Extreme moderation on the other hand is too fucked up to deal with. The level of inanity at the WS is what got to be fatiguing. The bullying viciousness of the adversial bored has eviscerated any meaningful content. It's a bulletin bored for birthday greetings and news of new releases that the taste-makers can tell everybody how much they'll like. Or not. Frankly, there's hardly a palate over there that I'd trust.

And I'm fucking sick of being called a liar. Do you want me to go back through this thread and enumerate all your fabrications? This paper trail is right here under our noses. And it stinks. Fuck off, shitbag. Just so's your not disappointed that there be no ad hominem attacks.

Posted by: Donnie Darko Apr 19 2010, 04:58 PM

Well thank goodness everyone retained their PMs! That way they can be posted publicly, while the posters simultaneously yap about how much they value privacy. Touché that, biyatch! Then we'll really know the "real truth".

As for the value of FV, we can all speculate about how the legalization of absinthe can be traced back to this place, and perhaps that is true. It should be respected as an innovative gathering place built for people with a common interest at a time when no other such venue existed (thanks Kallisti!). Sometimes when smart people get together with a common interest amazing things can happen. I was able to encounter real quality absinthe because of this place and learn the truth about its history because of this place. If WS helps some people go in that direction also, then that's also great. At the end of the day though, it's just a place for conversation, and the PEOPLE that are making the conversation is more important than the location where they have the conversation, so let's not get too grandiose of a self-important image of either forum, OK?

Now you may return to the childish wankery of who-said-what-when, or how Hiram runs his forum, or how this forum is supposedly a den of vitriol, or some other pathetic insignificant quick-to-take-offense bullshit that tells us quite a bit about the people who are so fixated upon it, but tells us very little about anything significant.

Posted by: Provenance Apr 19 2010, 05:22 PM

OK.

QUOTE(Hiram @ Apr 19 2010, 08:51 AM) *
I'm clearly not appreciated or respected

IPB Image

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 05:52 PM

QUOTE(Provenance @ Apr 19 2010, 01:22 PM) *

IPB Image

Funny. Funny because it's certain FV members who continuously whine about the WS. Maybe I'll just use that pic the next time someone here brings up yet another 'WS injustice'.


Several posts today have exemplified why nothing will change. When valid points are made that debunk certain accusations, there seem to be three types of response:

1) The, 'Yeah, but what about me?' response
or
2) The, 'Let's change the topic by making a different accusation' response
or
3) The, 'I'm just going to make a personal attack' response

None of the three work towards any form of resolution.



So, I think the best thing to do is just drop it and change the subject.

Posted by: Provenance Apr 19 2010, 06:09 PM

I am pleased that you are amused. You are, of course, free to use that pic although it so perfectly fit H's "I'm not appreciated" line that any subsequent use would likely prove repetitious.

Allow me to recomend an alternative suitable for most whining episodes that will simultaneously call out the offender while, with a bit of imagination or photoshopery, returning the thread to the topic of absinthe.


Attached image(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: Stroller Apr 19 2010, 06:15 PM

QUOTE(Hiram @ Apr 19 2010, 09:51 AM) *

It is the most popular, most well-known, busiest, largest, and fastest growing absinthe forum on the web.


I would have thought FV was larger. Outside of the board, Oxy has quite a bit of additional information published.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 06:19 PM

I'm sure he meant in terms of membership, not webspace.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 19 2010, 06:25 PM

QUOTE
Welcome to La Fee Verte Absinthe House!
The Oldest, Largest, Most Visited, Most Authoritative Absinthe Site.
Established 1997.


Conflicting claims I think.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 19 2010, 06:25 PM

Shitbag, don't deny http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWle4Cq2YaY.

Oh, wait, that would be base.

Or could be if it was rectified.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 06:39 PM

QUOTE(Stroller @ Apr 19 2010, 02:25 PM) *
Conflicting claims I think.

Information can become outdated.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 19 2010, 06:43 PM

I think it's pretty obvious this site is not as relevant to the general public today as WWS. Not as well maintained, not as frequently visited, etc. etc. and in my opinion that has little to do with the forums and everything to do with the fact that the folks at WWS worked harder to maintain the informational pages, while we let that part lie on the ground. Let's face it, apart from the forum, nothing much has changed here in years and the forum is all but dead more days than not, at least since I've been reading it again. I'm as guilty as anybody - I was moderator of the review section and I said to hell with it, I can't be bothered to do that anymore. Oxy invited me long ago to revise the FAQ and I just couldn't be bothered. I just got burnt out on the whole thing. It will be interesting to see where any of these absinthe sites are in ten years - will anybody give a damn about absinthe then?

Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 06:47 PM


Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 07:02 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 17 2010, 05:20 PM) *

QUOTE
I'm sure many people like to read Peace and War in the Reader's Digest version. I don't.
Also nothing to do with the conversation, as we're not discussing people like us, who enjoy the atmosphere.

It has everything to do with the conversation. One of the things I don't like about the WWS is the lack of dissenting opinions (or at least the gloves that are worn).

QUOTE
Are you intentionally acting dense?

No, and I don't think you're even being ad hominem on purpose.

You're ignoring my point: a forum is not for the same thing as informational pages, at least to me. If whatever happens on the forum at FV would ooze into attitude displayed on the informational pages, I'd object. As long as it's confined to the forum, I don't.

There's no need for FV to be a forum just like WWS, given that the WWS exists. So I'd rather see FV be something else.

QUOTE
I don't think I can make my point any clearer.

Undoubtedly a true statement.

QUOTE
It's exactly that type of statement that shows that you really don't know anything about what the WS really is. You stick to preconceived notions and propaganda and don't actually look at facts.


It's not a preconceived idea. I am still a member, I did participate, but I just lost interest.

Of course, it's a matter of opinion, and I'll accept that. But you don't, and the fact that a statement of mine appears to you to show something provably untrue says a lot about your logic.

Perhaps if you weren't as desperate to be so defensive all the time you could perhaps read and understand what others are trying to tell you.

Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 07:06 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 17 2010, 05:35 PM) *

So many of you view me as an arm of the 'enemy'.

Probably a lot less than those you think see you that way.

QUOTE

Ockham's razor, my friends.

Yes, I can recommend it. You might try applying it as well from time to time.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 07:09 PM

It's my philosophy to apply it on a regular basis.


Your point that it's confined to the forum in a novel idea, but it doesn't disprove the fact that I get feedback from journalists on a regular basis about the FV having a bad rep, which prevents them from citing it or visiting it to ask questions. The forum has scared away press from the main site, which has a wealth of great absinthe info.

That's not me talking, that's the press. You might notice, I rarely criticize the FV forums. It's not my goal. I don't care what the FV forums do. I'm just passing along the message to those who might care.

But again, my point still stands. The people here who are the ones helping to create that image either don't care or don't believe me. That won't change. So there's no point to continue to argue about it.

Posted by: synthetic buddhist Apr 19 2010, 07:15 PM

that's never stopped anyone here before…

Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 07:23 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 18 2010, 05:47 PM) *

a thread that isn't consumed with attacking the WS.


Quit being such a drama queen.

Instead of reading everything in that light (a "preconceived idea") just ignore the bluster and discuss what's interesting. They'll only be consumed if you take the flame bait and encourage the trolls.

I've seen you do it often in this thread, only to fall back in "everybody hates the WWS" whinging that hides the nuggets of useful reasoned debate in a lot of noise.

Everybody doesn't hate the WWS. I don't, and I always wiped my feet at the door there.

I don't even hate Hiram, though I'm obviously not him and we have a lot of differences in opinion on many things. One thing is that he doesn't have as good a brand of asbestos suit as I have.

Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 07:32 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 19 2010, 08:09 PM) *

That's not me talking, that's the press.

"The press" is a platonic ideal in whose existence (as a universal) I often don't believe.

There are lots of journalists, and my opinion of a journalist who'd be scared away from reading informational pages because a forum on the same address has a certain style of debate colours my opinion of those journalists (what do they think will happen if they read persons A and B hurling insults at each other? Be infected with the Seed of Evil?)

I do know good journalists. Perhaps the culture is different here, but they know what doing their research is, and "being spoonfed" isn't "research".

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 07:34 PM

I think Artemis and I discussed that very thing.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 07:36 PM

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 19 2010, 03:23 PM) *
Everybody doesn't hate the WWS. I don't, and I always wiped my feet at the door there.

I never believed otherwise. But anytime the WS is brought up, it seems to bring out the few who do, which tends to take a meaningful discussion and turn it into some shit flinging mess.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind shit flinging sometimes. It just gets tedious to see the same old crap rehashed over and over again without any change to anyone's opinions or beliefs on the subject.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 07:38 PM

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 19 2010, 03:23 PM) *
Quit being such a drama queen.

Come now, Sixer. Do you really think I'm being a drama queen? I think a lot of the inflated accusations and misinformation is a bit more dramatic than I'm being.

I personally don't care what anyone at the FV thinks about the WS. But if I see misinformation, I'll work to correct it. I've made the same statement several times over the past few years. There are those over here who like the WS, those who hate it, and those who are indifferent. These discussions probably won't change any of their opinions.

*my apologies for the multiple posts.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 19 2010, 07:43 PM

I think it's worth noting that when Oxy took over this site and provided the links to his museum site (or maybe the links were already there, but certainly the museum has grown by leaps and bounds since then) it made a lot of the information on the back pages here superfluous.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 19 2010, 07:46 PM

Actually this thread would have died on the first page had you left it alone.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 19 2010, 07:51 PM

Who?

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 07:53 PM

Me.


But JP, it never would've needed to die if you didn't push the envelope. wink.gif Why does this forum always try to place blame on the person who reacts instead of the instigator?

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 19 2010, 07:54 PM

Shabba. I thought the thread had died a quiet and well deserved death after Prov's post but then Shabba came in to kill it and revived it for a few days proving that sometimes the best "defense" is to do nothing.

Your posts were inspiring.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 07:55 PM

You forget I was expected/asked to be here.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 19 2010, 07:55 PM

I would have been glad to let it die but wounds nag when rubbed with salt (or Bullxit). The point remains and not to cast blame so much as to point out that an aggressive defense is not always the best way to go.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 07:57 PM

Funny you mention bullshit, since much of what you said was exactly that.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 19 2010, 07:59 PM

Won't let it die, will you?

Wisdom is not seen in your resistance to advice.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 19 2010, 08:01 PM

I have mixed feelings about it. I didn't start it, but I did urge Marcelo to start it. He had no idea what he was getting into. It's caused me to apologize for some things that are not even my fault. My conscience weighs upon me these days, probably without cause in a lot of cases, and most of them have nothing to do with these forums, but apology is never wasted, I guess.

This was in response to #179.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 08:02 PM

QUOTE
Won't let it die
Look who's talking. I've been defending the WS for a lot less time than you people have been complaining about it. Who shoud let it go?

Posted by: Tibro Apr 19 2010, 08:02 PM

When I was an earnest young man a writer that I greatly admired (and still do) suggested to me that it's a useful exercise to assume that your readers are smarter than you are. I mostly take that as a given, speaking strictly from my own personal perspective. I mean, it would be hard to argue otherwise. Unfortunately, there are times when my own insecurities get the better of me. And I start trying to see if there isn't some fool out there reading my words who I might be intellectually superior to. And I have a go at getting them revved up. Then if that works I like to see if I can get the wheels to come off.

They almost always do.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 08:04 PM

Is that why you left TARN and erased many of your posts? Because you won?

Posted by: Tibro Apr 19 2010, 08:05 PM

Do not jump to conclusions, grasshopper.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 08:07 PM

Didn't jump to any. Just asked.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 19 2010, 08:08 PM

QUOTE
I've been defending the WS for a lot less time than you people have been complaining about it.


And I thought St. Jude was the patron saint of lost causes.

Might as well let it go and have a drink, maybe I will too and we'll both feel better.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 19 2010, 08:09 PM

The phrasing of your questions reveals the state of your thinking.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 08:09 PM

Question still remains. Why tell me to let it go when you won't?

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 19 2010, 08:15 PM

Shabba, I wish you'd post here with the same enthusiasm about something other than the WS. This is a sterile argument and, more importantly, soul-crushingly tedious. For goodness sake's, just let it go.

For the record, no, I don't have the slightest intention whatsoever of in any way moderating the content of this site so that it's more accessible, or acceptable, to journalists. Why should I? Many journalists have used this site, and quoted it approvingly, but I don't in any way consider the approbation of journalists or those in the media a goal worth particularly striving for when it comes to the management of this forum. So PLEASE don't tell us again that this site is not "journalist friendly". We don't care.

This forum remains true to the ideals developed here by Kallisti in the late 1990's. It exists entirely and solely for the enjoyment of its members, especially those who've contributed here from the earliest days, most of whom I consider personal friends. After 11 years, it's effectively self-governing, so very little admin input is needed. We warmly welcome new members, but we don't pamper them, or mollycoddle them. The requirements for membership are an inquiring mind, the ability to spell correctly and write grammatically, nothing more. We value in our members, in order of increasing importance: intelligence, wit, generosity of spirit. We will mock mercilessly the dull, the priggish and the pompous. We have the best and brightest minds in the absinthe renaissance contributing here - indeed, this site is the Haight Ashbury of the absinthe renaissance, this is Ground Zero, this is where it all began. There's arguably more in depth knowledge and experience in every aspect of absinthe here than anywhere else on earth. We welcome controversial, even outrageous opinions, we thrive on passionately argued discord, and we adore carefully crafted ad hominem insults. We particularly feel that the topics of art, philosophy, religion, politics, morality and sex are entirely appropriate for an online absinthe bar, which is what this forum is. We feel excessive politeness, orderliness, uptightness and central control are the antithesis of everything absinthe should stand for, so we actively discourage them here.

This forum is a remarkable place. The contribution to the absinthe renaissance of founder members like Kallisti, Artemis, Ted Breaux and Pierreverte is incalculable, and still poorly appreciated. Brands have been created, companies established, books written and distilleries founded as a direct consequence of this forum. Marriages (and divorces) have happened because of the forum. People have changed their professions, moved city, moved country, crossed seas and continents as a result of this forum. I consider it an honour that Kallisti entrusted it to me.

So that's who we are, and what we do. As long as I am the custodian of this place it's not going to change. A percentage of absinthe aficionados will love it here, and a probably larger percentage won't. Tant pis.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 08:19 PM

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 19 2010, 04:15 PM) *

Shabba, I wish you'd post here with the same enthusiasm about something other than the WS.
I'd be happy to, but there's rarely a discussion about anything here anymore.

QUOTE
So PLEASE don't tell us again that this site is not "journalist friendly". We don't care.

Fair enough. That's all I need to know.

Case closed.

For the record, I love it here too.

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 19 2010, 08:29 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 19 2010, 11:19 PM) *

I'd be happy to, but there's rarely a discussion about anything here anymore.


The one thing I've always taken for granted is that Mafia members here would, if nothing else, have the Fee Verte's forum's best interests at heart. Reading your contributions - essentially an ongoing advertorial for the WS - make me sometimes wonder if that's true in your case. If the place isn't congenial to you, why do you visit?

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 19 2010, 08:34 PM

Oxy, you post brings a tear to my eye.

Thanks for your wise custodianship and contribution to Absinthe.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 08:35 PM

Oxy, I have good relationships with quite a few people here. The WS argument only comes up every once in a while. I'm not going to steer away from a place with such history and so much good information just because a handful of people give me a hard time. You don't think that I let them really bother me that much do you?

I've never once said I dislike the FV. In fact, I've said exactly the opposite. Both here, and at the WS.

So, in your mind, our discussions about the WS is painting it in a good light?

Posted by: Kirk Apr 19 2010, 08:35 PM

If number of words count, Hiram and Shabba win. It may be a little thing to Hiram but censorship is a very serious issue to many of us, that is why we get involved, again and again, to the forums chagrin, I hate that anyone would think it selfish to state the obvious. You two work too hard at this. The few times I have read the W.S. forums I was struck with how cruel it is to be cool.
Artemis, Provenance, Sixela, Tibro, Jaded Prol and others have said everything that needs to be said in this thread so I will spare you all the time of my words except to say that I agree with everything they have said while most of what Hiram and Shappa has said is untrue or unfounded, and the degree of conviction they hold is disturbing.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 08:37 PM

I challenge you to point out anything I've said in this thread that is untrue. Please.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 19 2010, 08:39 PM

Christ, Shabba

QUOTE
have a drink, maybe I will too and we'll both feel better.


At least one of us has taken my advice and I do feel better.

Posted by: Kirk Apr 19 2010, 08:40 PM

QUOTE
For the record, I love it here too.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 19 2010, 08:40 PM

Let it go Shabba.

Posted by: Provenance Apr 19 2010, 08:40 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 19 2010, 12:34 PM) *

Oxy, you post brings a tear to my eye.

Thanks for your wise custodianship and contribution to Absinthe.

What he said.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 08:45 PM

Ah, so once again, I'm told to let it go after someone else has attacked me.

QUOTE
Why does this forum always try to place blame on the person who reacts instead of the instigator?

Posted by: Tibro Apr 19 2010, 08:45 PM

I think that what Oxy spelled out was inherently clear in the hearts of most of us already. And I'm a relative newcomer. But, as usual, it was beautifully articulated and will leave no room for question should any of us waver in our sense of belonging. Thanks for that.

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 19 2010, 08:49 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 19 2010, 11:45 PM) *

Ah, so once again, I'm told to let it go after someone else has attacked me.


Yes, that's right, that's what "letting it go" means.

Posted by: eric Apr 19 2010, 08:50 PM

OH Snap!

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 19 2010, 08:57 PM

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 19 2010, 04:49 PM) *

Yes, that's right, that's what "letting it go" means.

No shit.

QUOTE
Why does this forum always try to place blame on the person who reacts instead of the instigator?


If you're so irritated with the discussion, then maybe addressing both parties instead of me would be helpful.

Posted by: eric Apr 19 2010, 09:30 PM

QUOTE
We feel excessive politeness, orderliness, uptightness and central control are the antithesis of everything absinthe should stand for, so we actively discourage them here.


I am so glad you said that. My thoughts exactly.
I would tend to think that the famous artists and creative minds that we associate with Absinthe would agree.

Posted by: Donnie Darko Apr 19 2010, 09:45 PM

I wish Oxy would make a "quotes by Oxy Calendar", that way I could have a new one every day of the week. In fact it would be even better if each page were accompanied with a picture of a pre-ban absinthe, and perhaps a sparsely clothed Belle Epoque temptress….

Posted by: Absomphe Apr 19 2010, 09:52 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 19 2010, 01:34 PM) *

Oxy, you post brings a tear to my eye.

Thanks for your wise custodianship and contribution to Absinthe.




End of story™


Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 10:01 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 19 2010, 08:38 PM) *

Do you really think I'm being a drama queen?


Yes. I wouldn't say it if I thought otherwise. Not that I hate you for it or have a dart board with a picture of you on it, mind you -- some of my best friends are real drama queens -- but you are certainly not moving on in circumstances where I would.

Tibro has earned a title in the left column thanks to you, yet you never fail to take his bait.


Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 10:03 PM

[Double double post post]

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 19 2010, 10:03 PM


QUOTE
and perhaps a sparsely clothed Belle Epoque temptress….


I like the sound of that.

Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 10:13 PM

QUOTE(Kirk @ Apr 19 2010, 09:35 PM) *

If number of words count, Hiram and Shabba win.


I could beat them if I wished to. But then I don't really want to beat them.

QUOTE
most of what Hiram and Shappa has said is untrue or unfounded,


It's showing little empathy to say that what they say is "untrue or unfounded" (at least if you imply that from their perspective they should know it is).

I certainly can see where these feelings are coming from; a lot is a matter of perspective.

But I'm in no position to buy them a beer or two (or a "geneverke") at a pub's terrace to have a good laugh about it all in an attempt to give them a different perspective.

That's what an ocean does to interpersonal communication.



Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 19 2010, 10:25 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 20 2010, 01:03 AM) *

QUOTE
and perhaps a sparsely clothed Belle Epoque temptress….


I like the sound of that.



Something like this?


Attached image(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 10:27 PM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 19 2010, 09:45 PM) *

Ah, so once again, I'm told to let it go after someone else has attacked me.


No, you're not "told" anything. You're given some advice, and in this place you're free to take it or to refuse to take it and bump your head on the wall ad nauseam.

Some aren't politically correct, aren't polite, and sometimes voice their opinion even though it's obviously all from their perspective and competely unbalanced. Tibro also likes nothing more than simply to yank your chain, not engaging in reasoned debate at all.

On this forum, that's OK. I'd say it's up to the reader to sort it all out and see who's got a credible argument, and the default is to assume he¹ will be smart enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. And some chaff for some will be wheat to others and vice versa, but that's fine. We're not a bunch of theologists trying to determine the Doctrine of the Curch.

--
¹Yes, I don't care what others think, I'll continue to use "he" as a gender-neutral pronoun.

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 19 2010, 11:25 PM) *

Something like this?


Not enough absinthe.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 19 2010, 10:28 PM

Nice hat tush.

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 19 2010, 10:29 PM

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 20 2010, 01:27 AM) *

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 19 2010, 11:25 PM) *

Something like this?


Not enough absinthe.


Tough crowd.


Attached image(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: Absomphe Apr 19 2010, 10:30 PM

Looks familiar.

Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 10:39 PM

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 19 2010, 11:29 PM) *

Tough crowd.


Mo'betterer.

With that cigarette and that look on her face, a bonus is that she looks a lot like Serge Helfrich.

Well, his family does have roots in France (well, at least in a region that's French these days).

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 19 2010, 10:40 PM

QUOTE(Absomphe @ Apr 20 2010, 01:30 AM) *

Looks familiar.


There's no pleasing you, is there?




Attached image(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: Absomphe Apr 19 2010, 10:47 PM

Looks familiar.

Posted by: Provenance Apr 19 2010, 10:50 PM

Abs, He's going to catch on sooner or later. Preferably later.

Posted by: Provenance Apr 19 2010, 10:54 PM

And, full circle, we can finally answer mgs' question.

QUOTE(mgs @ Apr 13 2010, 12:20 AM) *

Can someone please explain me the differences and similarities of the forums in La Fée Verte and WS ?

The difference between WS and FV is: IPB Image

Vive la différence!

Posted by: Leopold Apr 19 2010, 10:58 PM

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 19 2010, 02:15 PM) *

This forum is a remarkable place. The contribution to the absinthe renaissance of founder members like Kallisti, Artemis, Ted Breaux and Pierreverte is incalculable, and still poorly appreciated.


I'd love to get fall-down drunk with this crew.

Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 10:59 PM

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 19 2010, 11:40 PM) *

There's no pleasing you, is there?


Oh, yes, I'm pleased.

I think that indeed a picture is worth a thousand words, as with these few posts you basically answered the original question in the thread:

[edit: Rats, Provenance beat me to it]

Now let me return to the pissing contest. I think that Shabba somewhere in the thread implied I was dense, and I shall have to write a five post 20 000 word rebuttal to prove (without a shadow of a doubt) that I have exactly the same specific weight as others, and that it was a vicious and unwarranted attack on me to try to insinuate otherwise.

He even asked if I was being dense on purpose, as if I had any choice in the matter (if I had, I'd probably choose neutral buoyancy in 101300 Pa air at 293K).

I mean, if I don't publish a rebuttal, I'll be accused of being dense continuously by all and sundry. And if that turned out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, it'd eventually turn me into a black hole, and we wouldn't want that, now, would we?

Posted by: Kirk Apr 19 2010, 11:02 PM

The one with absinthe is on the first business card that Bettina sent me.

Posted by: Absomphe Apr 19 2010, 11:04 PM

Lucky you.

Posted by: sixela Apr 19 2010, 11:08 PM

QUOTE(Kirk @ Apr 20 2010, 12:02 AM) *

The one with absinthe is on the first business card that Bettina sent me.


Eventually turned out to be a costly picture, didn't it?

Posted by: Stroller Apr 19 2010, 11:19 PM

IPB Image

Posted by: Donnie Darko Apr 20 2010, 01:46 AM

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 19 2010, 06:25 PM) *

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 20 2010, 01:03 AM) *

QUOTE
and perhaps a sparsely clothed Belle Epoque temptress….


I like the sound of that.



Something like this?


Mmmm, junk in the trunk.

Posted by: Amber von Doom Apr 20 2010, 02:15 AM

More like a healthy female than junk. It's a good thing!

Posted by: Marlow Apr 20 2010, 03:11 AM

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 19 2010, 03:32 PM) *

There are lots of journalists, and my opinion of a journalist who'd be scared away from reading informational pages because a forum on the same address has a certain style of debate colours my opinion of those journalists (what do they think will happen if they read persons A and B hurling insults at each other? Be infected with the Seed of Evil?)

I do know good journalists. Perhaps the culture is different here, but they know what doing their research is, and "being spoonfed" isn't "research".


If no one is listening to you, it doesn't much matter that you hold in contempt the journalist to whom they are listening.

Posted by: Marlow Apr 20 2010, 03:54 AM

QUOTE(Provenance @ Apr 19 2010, 11:33 AM) *


As I've said before, people will make and drink no matter what. No "education" will change that

Not true. Whether one calls it "education" or "marketing," it's important to make the public aware that there are alternatives to swill. Otherwise, people will drink swill and be content, and there will only be swill to drink. Don't take my word for it; consider the history of brewing in the United States.

QUOTE
nor does the popularity of crap diminish the market for Delaware Phoenix or Pacifique.

Also not true…every bottle of LTV "absinthe" that is purchased is 50+ dollars not spent on something better. Every commercial absinthe maker must sell product in order to survive…and ultimately it will be commercial producers that decide what absinthe will be in the future. So the choice is either to get out the word or yield the floor to the other side.

QUOTE
Even if it did, I have no more right to try and ban LTV or Tunel Black just because they're not really absinthe than I should try to ban McDonald'z [or insert disliked product of choice here] because it's not really food.

If only the makers of those products shared your forbearance.

QUOTE

For the record, I never found the viciousness, personal attacks, bullying and ugliness here, at the Lounge, or at Jack's old sour beer and absinthe forum that I saw at WS. Perhaps it's changed.

Fortunately, this is a subject about which there is no need to argue.

Posted by: sixela Apr 20 2010, 06:36 AM

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 20 2010, 04:11 AM) *

If no one is listening to you, it doesn't much matter that you hold in contempt the journalist to whom they are listening.


Would you mind parsing that sentence to me? I must be missing an English grammar module in my brain this morning.

And yes, it does matter. Let me put it more bluntly, since you seem to have trouble getting with the programme when the argument is made more subtly: fuck "the press", especially when they're idiots. Trying to convert to unwashed masses by compromising or stooping to their level is not what this place is all about.

I'm not here to be heard, and least of all heard by journalists who're too lazy to do their job properly.

QUOTE
it's important to make the public aware that there are alternatives to swill.

I think that people by now will be "aware" if they only do a bit of homework (and can see stupid hype for what it is when they see it).

As far as those that refuse to do their homework, well, let them drink swill if that's what they want. For many of them, attempting to educate them is futile: they're not looking for a drink, they're looking for hype and something that will set them apart from the crowd, and they'll gladly parrot the hype to others just to show how much they're part of the "in"-crowd. Telling them that it's just a drink (and a tasteful one at that) isn't going to cut it.

Posted by: Alan Apr 20 2010, 06:45 AM

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 19 2010, 10:36 PM) *

journalist whores
Corrected.

Posted by: mgs Apr 20 2010, 07:00 AM

QUOTE(Provenance @ Apr 19 2010, 04:54 PM) *

And, full circle, we can finally answer mgs' question.
QUOTE(mgs @ Apr 13 2010, 12:20 AM) *

Can someone please explain me the differences and similarities of the forums in La Fée Verte and WS ?

The difference between WS and FV is: IPB Image

Vive la différence!


finally !

- mgs

Posted by: Tibro Apr 20 2010, 07:02 AM

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 20 2010, 05:54 AM) *

it's important to make the public aware

I may not be the brightest light on the Christmas tree but surely the futility of this needs no further illumination. The burgeoning groundswell of microbreweries has not swept swill from the shelves and neither will a blossoming of microdistilleries. No matter how much education they bring with them or are accompanied by.

I may play the cretin to shitbag's gentleman but I think that only makes it all the more laughable that he, and clearly some others, willfully remain clueless. But then, maybe if it doesn't come from the pen of a journalist it doesn't have any credibility with them.

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 20 2010, 08:09 AM

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 20 2010, 01:59 AM) *


I think that Shabba somewhere in the thread implied I was dense, and I shall have to write a five post 20 000 word rebuttal to prove (without a shadow of a doubt) that I have exactly the same specific weight as others, and that it was a vicious and unwarranted attack on me to try to insinuate otherwise.

He even asked if I was being dense on purpose, as if I had any choice in the matter (if I had, I'd probably choose neutral buoyancy in 101300 Pa air at 293K).


Everytime I read something like this from Sixela, I'm amazed all over again that he has a hot wife. Actually I'm amazed he has a wife, period.

Posted by: sixela Apr 20 2010, 08:41 AM

You're not the only one. I'm pretty surprised myself.

Must be the fact I'm a wicked tango dancer.

Here's my idol -- less gay than some others (and there's more physical resemblance, too):

IPB Image

He danced better than I do, but hey, my wife's still hotter. There goes my theory.

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 20 2010, 09:07 AM

This is really the absinthe you should be drinking….




Attached image(s)
Attached Image Attached Image

Posted by: Marlow Apr 20 2010, 12:00 PM

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 20 2010, 02:36 AM) *


Let me put it more bluntly, since you seem to have trouble getting with the program


Ah, so there is a "program" here at FV?

Do not worry that you are misunderstood. Your posts, like most by the regulars here, are perfectly straightforward. The response to Brian's point about this forum's reputation has shifted from "not true" to "we don't care." That's fine. My purpose has never been to change the atmosphere here at the "Haight-Ashbury of Absinthe."

QUOTE

Tibro: The burgeoning groundswell of microbreweries has not swept swill from the shelves and neither will a blossoming of microdistilleries. No matter how much education they bring with them or are accompanied by.

The goal is not to sweep the swill from the shelves. The goal is to keep the good stuff from being swept from the shelves.

Posted by: Kirk Apr 20 2010, 12:45 PM

Every time I go to the store, I'm amazed at the number of new, high quality products there are.
Almost every time I try a mass produced product I am amazed at how they are able to make an acceptable product at such a low price, even if it's only marginally acceptable.
Speaking of your "purpose" besides insulting long term members here within your first 10 posts, would you care to share it with us?

Posted by: eric Apr 20 2010, 01:14 PM

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 20 2010, 07:00 AM) *


My purpose has never been to change the atmosphere here at the "Haight-Ashbury of Absinthe."



You have been here for one week and have contributed nothing to this forum outside of being Shabba's lapdog and pissing on the carpet.
I doubt that you have any other purpose.

cdog-plain.gif

Posted by: Provenance Apr 20 2010, 01:50 PM

But he does! Marlow demonstrates, if inadvertently, the meaning of a free forum.

Posted by: mgs Apr 20 2010, 04:14 PM

QUOTE(eric @ Apr 20 2010, 07:14 AM) *

I doubt that you have any other purpose.

cdog-plain.gif


Ah ! A new member asked last week in her introduction how often the moving cornhole would used in this forum……… I see that it has come to use now…

----- actually FV has very nice Smilies…. spam_laser.gif

I have been reading this discussion and learning a lot. It reminds me when I used to be member of the Labor Party in Brazil from 1981 to 1983, it was the only party that time was trying to bring the democracy back…. However, the discussions internally was "who was more on the left"….. the center-left, the middle-left, the left-left, and the outside-leftist-of-the-lefts….. and eventually the "so much lefts" that were "left" of the discussions…..

Cheers,

- mgs

Posted by: sixela Apr 20 2010, 07:19 PM

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 20 2010, 01:00 PM) *

QUOTE(sixela @ Apr 20 2010, 02:36 AM) *


Let me put it more bluntly, since you seem to have trouble getting with the program


Ah, so there is a "program" here at FV?

There certainly is a programme in what we're trying to tell you (and that you seem to refuse to see). One of the more important subtexts is that there isn't a programme "at Fee Verte" in general (at least in the forum). Just passion and the exchange of ideas.

There certainly is a programme for the content outside of the forum, and there is a point to the link to the virtual absinthe museum (which, in contrast, is entirely informational).

As for the press, "we don't care" doesn't convey what most of us think, I guess.

"We sure as hell well won't wear a suit and wrap it all up as a present, and if that gets their panties in a bunch, tough luck for them" would be more accurate.

Posted by: Absomphe Apr 20 2010, 07:28 PM

Indeed, but then again, in an ideal world, nobody should ever have to wear a suit for "the man".


Posted by: synthetic buddhist Apr 20 2010, 08:25 PM

except anyone who works for me.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 20 2010, 09:02 PM

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 20 2010, 02:00 PM) *

Ah, so there is a "program" here at FV?

You misspelled "pogrom".

Although it's explicitly not ethnic nor religous in nature. Just culling the weak and clueless no matter what their persuasion.

Posted by: Absomphe Apr 20 2010, 09:15 PM

QUOTE(synthetic buddhist @ Apr 20 2010, 01:25 PM) *

except anyone who works for me.


A tattoo artist who demands that his employees wear a monkey suit?

No surprise, there. harhar.gif

Posted by: dakini_painter Apr 20 2010, 11:12 PM

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 20 2010, 08:00 AM) *

The goal is not to sweep the swill from the shelves. The goal is to keep the good stuff from being swept from the shelves.


Education regarding absinthe is certainly valuable for a spirit that has been unavailable for nearly 100 years.

But nearly all of the so called hard spirits are poorly understood by the majority of drinking public. American whiskey nearly died as a spirit in the 70's. While there's a sea of blends (whisky and GNS) at the very bottom of the category, the bottom of the straight whiskies are pretty decent, and the commonly available JD and JB are serviceable, certainly for many people. Above that it's quite good and often affordable. Not always though, as there's been an interest in artisanal offerings, and even the big Kentucky distilleries have incredible offerings at the high end.

The US isn't the EU. The original promotion of absinthe as a kind of hallucinogenic alcoholic drug isn't allowed here. The newly 21 crowd quickly lost interest in expensive absinthe. Then lost interest in absinthe. Probably for the better.

Surely there's some interest, and this being the era that it is, the Internet is used as a information tool. But there's no big wave of people becoming interested in it. The market for coffee liqueur is probably 100 times bigger than the market for absinthe. The Belle Epoque is over.

But I'm glad there's people who like collecting nice memorabilia with pretty pictures for us to look at.

Posted by: speedle Apr 20 2010, 11:48 PM

Well, that's a bit sad, but then again I'm just thankful there are other people who share some of the interests I have, and can have a good time a number of different ways while enjoying those interests.

Oh, and at least 4 different forums I can linger about on, whiling away the hours.

Posted by: Marlow Apr 20 2010, 11:52 PM

QUOTE(Kirk @ Apr 20 2010, 08:45 AM) *

Speaking of your "purpose" besides insulting long term "members" here in your first 10 posts, would you care to share it with us?

Have I insulted you or others here? I thought I had managed to keep my arguments impersonal, but please let me know if I have done otherwise. I'll offer an immediate apology to anyone whom I've attacked personally.

Or do you mean that expressing disagreement with the predominant faction here constitutes an "insult" to long-time members? If that's your meaning, it suggests to me that Fee Verte values "controversial, even outrageous opinions" somewhat less than Oxy would have people believe.

QUOTE(Provenance @ Apr 20 2010, 09:50 AM) *
Marlow demonstrates…the meaning of a free forum.

I'm not sure that's been demonstrated at all. Many would argue that heaping contumely on those with whom one disagrees is antithetical to the idea of free debate.

Anyway, to answer the question, while I might say that my purpose in coming here is to contribute to the "passionately argued discord," in fact, like Sixela, I come here not to be heard.



Posted by: Kirk Apr 21 2010, 12:14 AM

QUOTE
If no one is listening to you, it doesn't much matter that you hold in contempt the journalist to whom they are listening.

Was this directed at Sixela, or the forum in general?
QUOTE
like Sixela, I come here not to be heard.

We like Sixela very much here and I think he would be offended by your presumption.
I'm a little put off by your insistence that no one is listening to you. It's possible I am missing your point, no hard feelings.

Posted by: Marlow Apr 21 2010, 12:34 AM

The first comment was in response to Sixela but directed at the forum in general. My meaning was simply that if one wishes to get one's message out to the public, one has to work with those who have the public's ear, regardless of how one feels about them. Clearly I should have used to pronoun "one" rather than "you."

My second comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Earlier in this thread, Sixela wrote "I'm not here to be heard, and least of all heard by journalists who're too lazy to do their job properly." I was merely paraphrasing him in what was intended to be a jocular way.

Please let me know if I can clarify any other points.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 21 2010, 04:46 AM

This is what I said in post #13 of this thread:

QUOTE(Tibro @ Apr 15 2010, 07:51 PM) *

Good fucking luck educating the public. I'll stick to the forum where education is your own responsibility. The press have shown how slow they are to accept that responsibility. And the public gets what they deserve.

It's the message. "The press" don't make a big impression on the function of this forum. Right there on the first page. And then the wheels started coming loose.

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 21 2010, 07:31 AM

QUOTE(Marlow @ Apr 21 2010, 02:52 AM) *

I'm not sure that's been demonstrated at all. Many would argue that heaping contumely on those with whom one disagrees is antithetical to the idea of free debate.


Believe me, if one of the regulars here heaped contumely on you, you'd really know about it. So far no one has opened up a can of contumely at all, for which I, for one, can't help feeling a little disappointed.

Don Walsh…now that was a man who knew how to heap contumely. Ahhh…memories….

Posted by: Oxygenee Apr 21 2010, 07:45 AM

Marlow, some historical examples to help you understand the difference:

Not contumely:

QUOTE
With all due respect, I beg to differ, sir.

Contumely:
QUOTE
Watch me shove a liter bottle of Blue Label up your ass and give you an enema you'll never recover from, you pasty faced Brit closet case cocksucker.


Getting it? Perhaps another example:

Not contumely:
QUOTE
Well, we'll just have to disagree as gentlemen.

Contumely:
QUOTE
You couldn't get laid in a Thai whorehouse with a hundred dollar bill wrapped around your woody.


Can you see the difference now?

Posted by: sixela Apr 21 2010, 07:47 AM

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 21 2010, 08:31 AM) *

Believe me, if one of the regulars here heaped contumely on you, you'd really know about it.


Ha! I don't think Marlow was here in the Golden Age. Even Artemis, who's still here, seems to have mellowed and lost interest in his favourite tool:

IPB Image

Posted by: Grim Apr 21 2010, 08:46 AM

Once he tastes it, those black eyes of his will roll back white…


Attached Image


all over again.

Posted by: Marlow Apr 21 2010, 12:26 PM

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 21 2010, 03:31 AM) *

So far no one has opened up a can of contumely at all, for which I, for one, can't help feeling a little disappointed.


From your lips to God's ears, Oxy. abs-cheers.gif

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 21 2010, 12:32 PM

If you ask then you shall receive butt you won't be Hiramed™ here (that is disappeared, banned or otherwise exiled)

Posted by: Steve Apr 21 2010, 12:34 PM

QUOTE
Watch me shove a liter bottle of Blue Label up your ass and give you an enema you'll never recover from, you pasty faced Brit closet case cocksucker.

I actually remember that. I wonder whatever happened to TimK.

Posted by: Artemis Apr 21 2010, 06:30 PM

Attached Image

QUOTE
seems to have mellowed and lost interest in his favourite tool




Posted by: Tibro Apr 21 2010, 07:31 PM

Unbelievable the scents they come up with for fumigants these daze.

As long as it gets rid of the pests.

Posted by: mgs Apr 21 2010, 10:18 PM

this reminds me something from many years ago:http://www.flickr.com/photos/51035610542@N01/sets/72157594291346788/

- mgs

Posted by: synthetic buddhist Apr 21 2010, 11:21 PM

soooooo, MGS, have you seen the difference yet? cdog-plain.gif

Posted by: mgs Apr 22 2010, 06:36 AM

QUOTE(synthetic buddhist @ Apr 21 2010, 05:21 PM) *

soooooo, MGS, have you seen the difference yet? cdog-plain.gif


YES…. I am completely fine to see all the differences…

now, do you want a drink ? say that instead of absinthe I will prepare you a good caipirinha, made with real and best Brazilian cachaça…..

and of course, good company => hula-1.gif hula-3.gif

- Marcelo

Posted by: Tibro Apr 22 2010, 07:25 AM

Yes, Marcelo, you seem like you might be mostly getting it. As compared to those who never will. One point of detail though is that we never quote the post directly above our own, unless singling out a thought for direct comment. It's unnecessary otherwise.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Apr 22 2010, 10:34 AM

That caipirinha sounds good!

Posted by: Donnie Darko Apr 22 2010, 10:58 AM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 21 2010, 02:30 PM) *

Attached Image
QUOTE
seems to have mellowed and lost interest in his favourite tool



HA! Next you'll start using words like groovy and far-out.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 22 2010, 12:51 PM

QUOTE(Tibro @ Apr 22 2010, 03:25 AM) *

As compared to those who never will.

You don't seem to understand. Those of us who are defending the WS know EXACTLY what the differences are. We also are content with those differences, like Marcelo is. The only people who don't seem content are a handful of people here.

Anywho…

Marcelo, what's your favorite cachaça for caiparinhas? I was lucky enough to get my hands on some Havana, which is, hands down, my favorite. But since it's hard to find, Mae De Ouro tends to be my 'go-to'.

Posted by: Tibro Apr 22 2010, 01:46 PM

I didn't even realize I had bait on my hook and I still caught a bottom-feeder.

Posted by: Stroller Apr 22 2010, 01:57 PM

Moth meet flame.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 22 2010, 01:58 PM

Anywho…

How bout that cachaca?

Posted by: Stroller Apr 22 2010, 02:25 PM

Should probably start a separate thread for that. I for one haven't tried it or at least I don't remember trying any.

Posted by: Shabba53 Apr 22 2010, 02:34 PM

Good idea.

Posted by: Marc Apr 22 2010, 10:32 PM

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 19 2010, 09:15 PM) *

People have changed their professions

Someone paged me?

Posted by: Head_prosthesis Apr 23 2010, 12:11 AM

Message from Kallisti.

QUOTE
Sorry for causing all that Absinthe




Posted by: Wild Bill Turkey Apr 23 2010, 03:16 AM

Yeah, let's don't forget who's really to blame for all this fighting. If it hadn't been for Kallisti, there wouldn't be any feud to obssess over and it would still be totally easy to get laid by showing a girl a bottle of Deva you picked up in Spain.

Posted by: Steve Apr 23 2010, 03:17 AM

QUOTE(Head_prosthesis @ Apr 22 2010, 05:11 PM) *

Message from Kallisti.
QUOTE
Sorry for causing all that Absinthe


Yes she did. heart.gif

Posted by: mgs Apr 23 2010, 05:25 AM

QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 22 2010, 07:58 AM) *

How bout that cachaca?


it is there, Shabba, on the other thread……. join us for rum versus cachaça discussion there… LOL

- Marcelo

Posted by: mgs Apr 23 2010, 05:28 AM

Tibro…… it is my first time on forums, so I am starting to getting used to not quote the message just above…..

cheers,

- M

Posted by: Tibro Apr 24 2010, 11:47 PM

QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Apr 21 2010, 09:31 AM) *

So far no one has opened up a can of contumely at all, for which I, for one, can't help feeling a little disappointed.

Now that the course of my antibiotics have done their duty I have come to the untimely conclusion that it is exceedingly difficult to open a can of contumely with a flaccid dick. So, with the occasional flashing of swords here we learn another difference between the forums. And of the hopes and aspirations of the forum owners.

Perhaps more graphics are in order.

Posted by: thegreenimp Apr 25 2010, 01:26 AM

QUOTE(Wild Bill Turkey @ Apr 22 2010, 10:16 PM) *

Yeah, let's don't forget who's really to blame for all this fighting. If it hadn't been for Kallisti, there wouldn't be any feud to obssess over and it would still be totally easy to get laid by showing a girl a bottle of Deva you picked up in Spain.



We were happier then….

Attached Image

Posted by: Donnie Darko Apr 25 2010, 06:03 AM

QUOTE(Head_prosthesis @ Apr 22 2010, 08:11 PM) *

Message from Kallisti.
QUOTE
Sorry for causing all that Absinthe



Apology not accepted. Had I not found this place, my lone vomitorious tussle with Sebor would have been my only Absinthe experience and I would have skipped the drink altogether. I could probably have paid off my college with the money saved. I coulda been a contender…

Posted by: mgs Apr 27 2010, 04:15 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgq2U3NyZAs

- mgs

Posted by: Tibro Apr 27 2010, 06:38 AM

Ah, but this is home, because all should know you never can go home again. Just as you can never step in the same river once.

Posted by: sardonix Apr 29 2010, 12:14 AM

ohmy.gif "…the horror…the horror…"

Posted by: Tibro Apr 29 2010, 05:13 AM

I thought this belonged here as a kind of summation.

QUOTE(Stroller @ Apr 28 2010, 06:31 PM) *

Shabba?

IPB Image


Or maybe just as a suggestion that ultimately there is rest for the wearisome.

Posted by: mgs Jul 6 2010, 08:45 PM

very interesting…… I just got a message "there" like this :

QUOTE
Marcelo, please refrain from starting a new thread for every idea that occurs to you.


Control is good, to keep things in order. But, too much control, kills creativity.

If you understand football (soccer), Brazil was out because of too much control of our coach (Dunga). I have seen this cause/effect relationship already many times in my life, in other instances.

of course, there is no way to discuss this "too much of control approach" there……. and I don't want to start a new sequence of emotions here…. but, I got really upset, yes, I did, really.

- Marcelo




Posted by: Absomphe Jul 6 2010, 09:16 PM

Would you like some Parmigiano Reggiano with that whine?

Posted by: absinthist Jul 6 2010, 09:19 PM

I am checking FV everyday and I haven't noticed Marcelo being that pain in the arse.

Posted by: Absomphe Jul 6 2010, 09:25 PM

Onacuz, as Artemis pointed out, this is the elephants' graveyard and it's illegal to anally rape us in most states.

Posted by: eric Jul 6 2010, 09:44 PM

QUOTE
Marcelo, please refrain from starting a new thread for every idea that occurs to you.


I wonder if I could guess who sent you that message.
Although I agree that it can get confusing when a certain topic gets splintered into numerous threads, I do not think that Marcelo has committed any infraction of the rules.

Posted by: Tibro Jul 6 2010, 09:49 PM

I think the subtext of the message is a condemnation of the proliferation of ideas.

You know, mgs, I hate to be the one to say it, but: "told ya so".

Posted by: Artemis Jul 6 2010, 09:51 PM

QUOTE
I am checking FV everyday and I haven't noticed Marcelo being that pain in the arse.


If I understood him correctly, he was not talking about FV.

Posted by: G&C Jul 6 2010, 09:55 PM

That's the way it reads to me.

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