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The Fée Verte Absinthe Forum - The Oldest, Largest, Most Authoritative Absinthe Forum. _ The Entrance Hall _ Shalom Verte!

Posted by: FarbrengenVerte Jan 12 2015, 09:21 PM

Hello there Absinthites!

My name is Justin. I live in LA with my wife and daughter (but am originally from NY). Iv been lurking on the green fairy for a while now but have now begun to enjoy it for the first time.

To be honest, I do not drink any other type of alcohol anymore. As someone who works in the creative side of advertising and branding I find Absinthe to be the perfect drink to open the mind but not get too sloppy at the same time

Anyways, I am preaching the choir here.

I do have one problem. I keep kosher. Which means that I am very limited in my alcohol consumption when it comes to grapes and grape-based drinks.

As of now there are no kosher grape-based absinthes (but I have heard that Jade looked into it a couple of times).

That leaves me with Absinthe with grain, sugar, beet etc alcohol bases.

Anyways, this limits the kind of Absinthe I can enjoy. And I think that once I introduce Absinthe to the larger community of my religious cohorts, it will quickly become the drink of choice for our gatherings, called Farbregens.

The problem is, most sites do not list the alcohol they use. I think there should be a rule about that.

Anyways, I have done a little research and contacted a few distilleries and have a working list that I hope to post here to get your insights etc.

So Shalom Everyone!

Lechaim!


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Posted by: Artemis Jan 12 2015, 09:40 PM

Welcome.

You pose an interesting question. I don't think I've seen it addressed in the long history of this forum.

I was once of the opinion that wine alcohol vs. neutral alcohol was a non-issue. I no longer hold that opinion, but there have always been and there still are very good absinthes made with neutral alcohol. Your only recourse may be to seek those out. In any case, it seems more fruitful than hoping producers will consider Kosher. If you ask any given producer what alcohol he uses, I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you. If he won't, you probably didn't want to buy anything from him anyway.

Posted by: Bruno Rygseck Jan 12 2015, 09:40 PM

Welcome!

Posted by: L'Assommoir Jan 13 2015, 12:00 AM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Jan 12 2015, 01:40 PM) *

.
I don't think I've seen it addressed in the long history of this forum.


Here is an oldy from Oxy
QUOTE
It is with deep reluctance that I enter into a public dispute with so eminent a authority, but I am afraid it is YOU who are mistaken, Absinthedrinker my friend. While it is true that the Rimbaud sketches show an uncircumcised robinette, there is a small publicity stamp at the the base of this fountain that explains all: "Absinthe La Juive". Of course as you know kosher absinthe was a significant sector of the market, there were several brands (you'll find one illustrated on Pg 24 of Delahaye's "Art et Histoire"), but "La Juive" was by far the most popular. So popular in fact, that like Pernod Fils, the label was often copied and satirised. An example of this is to be found on Pg114 of Conrad.

http://www.feeverte.net/archive/messages/1902/3097.html

and Welcome!



Posted by: FarbrengenVerte Jan 13 2015, 12:25 AM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Jan 12 2015, 09:40 PM) *

Welcome.

You pose an interesting question. I don't think I've seen it addressed in the long history of this forum.

I was once of the opinion that wine alcohol vs. neutral alcohol was a non-issue. I no longer hold that opinion, but there have always been and there still are very good absinthes made with neutral alcohol. Your only recourse may be to seek those out. In any case, it seems more fruitful than hoping producers will consider Kosher. If you ask any given producer what alcohol he uses, I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you. If he won't, you probably didn't want to buy anything from him anyway.


Thanks Artemis. I started a thread under general absinthe discussion to let you know what I have learned so far. Some Distilleries are hard to get a hold of though.
I am particularly interested in Emile Pernods.

Posted by: Artemis Jan 13 2015, 01:12 AM

Marc, who is an admin here, is a Frenchman living in France and is well familiar with many European distilleries, including Emile Pernot (not Pernod, but Pernot). If he doesn't know the answer to your question about Emile Pernot, he can probably get an answer for you from them, easier than you could.

I read parts of your other post. I didn't realize there was so much involved. Not just a matter of wine vs. neutral alcohol, obviously. I can pretty much assure you that anybody making absinthe from both neutral and grape alcohol is using the same still, utensils, etc. for both. The cost of having separate plants would almost certainly be prohibitive.

I'm not sure Oxy's post about Kosher absinthe was intended to be taken seriously, given the nature of the rest of that thread. I knew there were anti-Jewish absinthes in 1800s France, but Kosher absinthe? If there were such, keep in mind that today absinthe production is in its infancy all over the world compared to that era. Many absinthe distilleries had very deep pockets and could afford to produce for specific markets back then. Today, most, even the best, have to have some luck to produce any absinthe worthy of the name.

Posted by: FarbrengenVerte Jan 13 2015, 01:35 AM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Jan 13 2015, 01:12 AM) *

I read parts of your other post. I didn't realize there was so much involved. Not just a matter of wine vs. neutral alcohol, obviously. I can pretty much assure you that anybody making absinthe from both neutral and grape alcohol is using the same still, utensils, etc. for both. The cost of having separate plants would almost certainly be prohibitive.

I'm not sure Oxy's post about Kosher absinthe was intended to be taken seriously, given the nature of the rest of that thread. I knew there were anti-Jewish absinthes in 1800s France, but Kosher absinthe? If there were such, keep in mind that today absinthe production is in its infancy all over the world compared to that era. Many absinthe distilleries had very deep pockets and could afford to produce for specific markets.


The same equipment may or may not be a big issue. I know that Lucid, which has an OU Certification, is made in the same distillery in which they make Jade. It could be that the distilation process acts a s a form of Kashering or it could be that that equipment is thoroughly cleaned between batches.

As per Oxys post. I understand that it was satirical. There is evidence of religious Jews using Absinthe in religious rituals as cited below (the time period discussed is late 1700's.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2313049/jewish/Chapter-Seven-After-Yom-Kippur-with-the-Maggid.htm

Also, Absinthe is talked about in a code of Jewish law called The Mishnah Breua. But it is talked about as a medicinal cure in relation to whether or not it could be prepared on the Jewish Sabbath. In general, one is not allowed to take medicines (except in extreme circumstances or life threatening circumstances) on the Jewish Sabbath. However, if a cure is found in foods that people partake even during the normal week, then it it is allowed. At the time, Absinthe must not have been the drink it became because the Mishnah Bruea cites it as a drink that cannot be prepared on Sabbath.



Posted by: FarbrengenVerte Jan 13 2015, 01:38 AM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Jan 13 2015, 01:12 AM) *

Marc, who is an admin here, is a Frenchman living in France and is well familiar with many European distilleries, including Emile Pernod. If he doesn't know the answer to your question about Emile Pernod, he can probably get an answer for you from them, easier than you could.


I added a separate second post in which I list what I have discovered thus far and what I am looking for more information on.

http://www.feeverte.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=6170

Posted by: Artemis Jan 13 2015, 03:49 PM

I knew that.
This forum comes up for me in the "View New Posts" view. I don't see it any other way unless I take steps to do so.
On a good day, there might be four to six threads with new posts.
Therefore I can hardly fail to notice new posts.
And I had already said I read parts of your other post wink.gif ...
Initially I was going to make my response in your other thread instead of here, but I had a reason for doing it here instead. I don't remember the reason, though.

QUOTE
As per Oxys post. I understand that it was satirical.

My comment about that was in response to Assommoir, because he seemed to take it seriously, as I did, until I scanned the rest of the thread. I knew those other people. Degenerates, the lot of them.
QUOTE
it could be that that equipment is thoroughly cleaned between batches.

It's essential to do so if the still is used for something other than absinthe between batches of absinthe. Going from neutral to wine alcohol absinthe, it's probably not important. From wine to neutral, possibly of some importance. And by this I mean from a quality control standpoint, nothing to do with Kosher.
QUOTE
a drink that cannot be prepared on Sabbath

Much would depend upon the definition of "prepared" in that case. Making absinthe involves multiple steps, not performed on the same day, or even in the same year. The herbs and alcohol are mixed in a single day, but the herbs were likely harvested in a prior year, and the distillate may be blended years later, bottled for sale years later, etc.



Posted by: Provenance Jan 13 2015, 06:26 PM

I like it.

Welcome.


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Posted by: Marc Jan 14 2015, 04:59 PM

Welcome FarbrengenVerte!

I thought Oxy would answer your other post in more details but he didn't. I will try to help but I'm not sure I'm the right person.

My understanding is that even if an absinthe contains no ingredients that aren't kosher, it still cannot be certified as kosher if the distillery uses wine alcohol freely, even if not actually in the absinthe itself, so I'm surprised about the Lucid.
As for Emile Pernot, none of their absinthes are certified kosher, for the reason I mentioned above.


Posted by: FarbrengenVerte Jan 15 2015, 07:36 PM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Jan 13 2015, 03:49 PM) *


Much would depend upon the definition of "prepared" in that case. Making absinthe involves multiple steps, not performed on the same day, or even in the same year. The herbs and alcohol are mixed in a single day, but the herbs were likely harvested in a prior year, and the distillate may be blended years later, bottled for sale years later, etc.

QUOTE(Artemis @ Jan 13 2015, 03:49 PM) *

Much would depend upon the definition of "prepared" in that case. Making absinthe involves multiple steps, not performed on the same day, or even in the same year. The herbs and alcohol are mixed in a single day, but the herbs were likely harvested in a prior year, and the distillate may be blended years later, bottled for sale years later, etc.


The reason that the Mishnah Bereua prohibits the consumption of Absinthe on Shabbos is because of its healing qualities as all medications are prohibited on shabbas (except in life treating and other circumstances). However, if a food is normally consumed by healthy people as well, although it may have had healing properties, it may be consumed on Shabbat. Therefore, of one regular drinks absinthe as pleasurable drink and not for remedial purposes, it may be consumed on Shabbos.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Bd8aeqKKklYC&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=Mishnah+Berurah+and+absinthe&source=bl&ots=P8_1WnYlkP&sig=xlw916zuVLTzt9mNEkPaQwLnDKs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7hG4VLuUIcn3yQSLmoCoAw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Mishnah%20Berurah%20and%20absinthe&f=false

The Mishnah Beruah was written in the latter part of the 1800's or early 1900's. Its author, known as the Chofetz Chiam, return his soul to the creator in the 1930's. This time means he could have been talking about the Absinthe we all know and love… but because he was living in Poland (where apparently the La Verte Absinthe was not known to be so popular) it could be that he was referring to the original medicinal Absinttum (which was more like wormwood soaked in wine).

In a letter to his daughter (the future wife of the Rebbe), the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe told a story about how one of the followers of the Baal Shem Tov had a custom of using Absinthe for a jewish ritual that marks the end of Yom Kippur. (a 25 hour fast day). Usually wine is used for this. The text describes Absinthe as "(a strong, bitter liquor brewed from an extract of certain plants)." Its unclear if the parenthesis were the Rebbe's or the translators and I am also looking into what the word used was in the original Yiddish. But again, the time period for this would be around 1750-60 and the location Poland, so again they could be talking about something different.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2313049/jewish/Chapter-Seven-After-Yom-Kippur-with-the-Maggid.htm

So the medicinal question aside, the only other problem is the spoon and the sugar. There is a prohibition on Shabbos against anything that resembles sifting, and this process may constitute sifting. But, again, the consumption itself is not a problem provided one does not have remedial intentions.

Posted by: FarbrengenVerte Jan 15 2015, 07:39 PM

QUOTE(Provenance @ Jan 13 2015, 06:26 PM) *

I like it.

Welcome.


Oh my goodness! What was a drinking when I did that…

Posted by: Provenance Jan 15 2015, 08:01 PM

Sugar shouldn't pose a problem at all, just don't use it. Seriously, unless you're someone who really needs to sweeten absinthe, try it sans sucre. I've found that any absinthe worth drinking is better without sugar. If you disagree, consider pre-mixing dilute simple syrup for the louching and keep it in the fridge.

Posted by: Artemis Jan 15 2015, 08:09 PM

Same question came up at the French forum in the last day or so.
A noob asked about Stevia.
I said, absinthe is sweet, you don't need sugar, but if you want sugar (it makes some absinthes taste different, apart from sweetness), use real sugar, not false sugar.
Someone else suggested syrup.
Simple syrup is easy to prepare; I keep a bottle of it around for Gin Fizzes. There's nothing in it but cane sugar and spring water.

Posted by: Artemis Jan 15 2015, 08:17 PM

QUOTE
There is a prohibition on Shabbos against anything that resembles sifting, and this process may constitute sifting.

That's not the intent of the holey spoon. The intent is to slow the flow of water and to sparge it across a greater surface area of the liquor, so that the "louche" will develop slowly. And the sugar that they used back in the day was in the form of a brick that had to be cut up with shears. The resulting chunks don't dissolve well when dropped into liquid; they just sit there. So the lump is placed upon the spoon, where the impact of the stream of water breaks it up. It's more like erosion than sifting.

Posted by: FarbrengenVerte Jan 15 2015, 08:39 PM

QUOTE(Marc @ Jan 14 2015, 04:59 PM) *

Welcome FarbrengenVerte!

I thought Oxy would answer your other post in more details but he didn't. I will try to help but I'm not sure I'm the right person.

My understanding is that even if an absinthe contains no ingredients that aren't kosher, it still cannot be certified as kosher if the distillery uses wine alcohol freely, even if not actually in the absinthe itself, so I'm surprised about the Lucid.
As for Emile Pernot, none of their absinthes are certified kosher, for the reason I mentioned above.


Thanks Marc! I am curious how Lucid does it as well… Just so I know. Can you tell me which Emilie Pernot Absinthes use grain or beets and which use Wine?

Are there any other disiliries that you could get more product speciic with as well?


Posted by: FarbrengenVerte Jan 15 2015, 08:41 PM

QUOTE(Artemis @ Jan 15 2015, 08:17 PM) *

QUOTE
There is a prohibition on Shabbos against anything that resembles sifting, and this process may constitute sifting.

That's not the intent of the holey spoon. The intent is to slow the flow of water and to sparge it across a greater surface area of the liquor, so that the "louche" will develop slowly. And the sugar that they used back in the day was in the form of a brick that had to be cut up with shears. The resulting chunks don't dissolve well when dropped into liquid; they just sit there. So the lump is placed upon the spoon, where the impact of the stream of water breaks it up. It's more like erosion than sifting.


Interesting. Let me run this by a Rav. In any event. I would just mix the sugar in the water before hand so its not like you could notenjoy an Absinthe :-)

Posted by: Artemis Jan 15 2015, 09:04 PM

Just to be clear:
Someone might call bullshit and say, of course the purpose of the spoon is to support a lump of sugar.
What I'm saying is that the holes in the spoon don't serve the same purpose as the holes in a sifter (to change big dry particles into smaller dry particles).
Rather, they are intended to gently and somewhat evenly distribute sugared water.
To the extent that some solid particles of sugar will get through, and those are smaller than the original, I suppose it could be called sifting.

Posted by: l'homme verte Jan 16 2015, 11:01 AM

hello … interesting question …
i think when you find the perfect absinthe it will be a special moment …
it will be difficult no doubt … but well worth the journey …
we are forged by fires to create who we are …
as you search you will evolve and when you strike 'green' …
you will be lifted higher because of your efforts …
good luck on your quest … an amazing experience awaits !

Posted by: Jaded Prole Jan 16 2015, 12:16 PM

Which for you is the Roquette?

Care to introduce yourself?

Posted by: Kirk Jan 16 2015, 03:48 PM

I like that it is against sifting because I am against sifting, but I don't think of a dripper as sifting.

Posted by: l'homme verte Jan 16 2015, 06:12 PM

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Jan 16 2015, 12:16 PM) *

Which for you is the Roquette?

Care to introduce yourself?


hello there … simon from ireland here … aka l'homme verte …
roquette 1797 is the absinthe i have a 'supply' of …
i find that it numbs the tongue but not the mind … ;-)

Posted by: Kirk Jan 16 2015, 08:39 PM

I had hoped it paralyses the tongue.

Posted by: Jaded Prole Jan 16 2015, 10:03 PM

Indeed

Posted by: Artemis Jan 16 2015, 10:29 PM

QUOTE
I like that it is against sifting because I am against sifting

Lumpy Gravy?
Sifting is the best.
Of all the paraphernalia in my mother's kitchen, the sifter was my favorite. Turn that crank and watch the blades go around, take it outside and practice on dirt.
Getting away from sifting is what led this nation to the sorry state it's in.
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Posted by: Kirk Jan 17 2015, 12:50 AM


I never chop or sift my herbs though, that would be like sacrilege for me.

Posted by: Artemis Jan 17 2015, 12:52 AM

Good point.

Posted by: FarbrengenVerte Jan 21 2015, 04:10 AM

QUOTE(Marc @ Jan 14 2015, 04:59 PM) *

Welcome FarbrengenVerte!

I thought Oxy would answer your other post in more details but he didn't. I will try to help but I'm not sure I'm the right person.

My understanding is that even if an absinthe contains no ingredients that aren't kosher, it still cannot be certified as kosher if the distillery uses wine alcohol freely, even if not actually in the absinthe itself, so I'm surprised about the Lucid.
As for Emile Pernot, none of their absinthes are certified kosher, for the reason I mentioned above.



Marc which Emile Pernod products are made with grain or beets? Do you know the specifics of any other products like Guy etc etc?

Posted by: Marc Jan 30 2015, 06:03 PM

Pernot: the Roquette and the Berthe de Joux are the only ones distilled from wine alcohol afaik.
Guy: they don't use wine alcohol at all.
Devoille: I think only the Charlotte and the Libertine don't use wine alcohol.
Lemercier: no wine alcohol.
Combier: all of them use wine alcohol except for the Lucid and the L'Entêté.

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