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> Political Potpourri, Who cares
Ieuan
post Feb 13 2005, 05:49 PM
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Greetings one and all!

I have opened this thread because as threads go they evolve. I am guilty of derailing a thread from time to time and I feel some manner of guilt in doing that towards the creator of said thread. (Ooooo that rhymed) No disrespect was ever intended, but, at times message boards can be like conversations in a living room; they get on a roll.

I would like this space to be a free-for-all. Let’s stay “off topic” and have a blast!


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Ieuan
post Feb 13 2005, 05:57 PM
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I’ll be more than happy to start. As one of the lone Libertarians on this site, what is it about Libertarianism that ticks off the resident Democrats and Socialists here?

I already know what pisses off the residing Republicans… Our stance on the legalization of all drugs (Quick!! give me a syringe), queers having family rights, and Howard Stern being able to say the word “penis’ on the air waves.

God I love to stir a turd.


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Absomphe
post Feb 13 2005, 06:07 PM
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I'm largely apolitical, due to an excessive involvement in the political process from too early an age, but if I have any leanings at all, they are most certainly Libertarian, so it's nice to meet a "comrade" (specifically inserted to annoy Republicans). harhar.gif

BTW, Ieuan, Potpourri would be much appreciated in here, if you plan on making a habit of stiiring turds! abs-cheers.gif


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Ieuan
post Feb 13 2005, 06:09 PM
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FUCK! A supporter. I'm aiming for dissent.

P.S. I voted for Badnarik. That should get things rolling.


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Absomphe
post Feb 13 2005, 06:12 PM
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Tough room.


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Ieuan
post Feb 13 2005, 06:15 PM
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How 'bout this. The 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto are almost fully in play in America.

Does this worry anyone? *Fanning the flames*


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Ieuan
post Feb 13 2005, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (Absomphe @ Feb 13 2005, 11:07 AM)
I'm largely apolitical, due to an excessive involvement in the political process from too early an age, but if I have any leanings at all, they are most certainly Libertarian, so it's nice to meet a "comrade" (specifically inserted to annoy Republicans). harhar.gif


Naaa, we appeal to the Republicans far more than the Dems. What's up with that?!!! abs-cheers.gif


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hobgoblin
post Feb 13 2005, 06:38 PM
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I'd be very surprised if you were the lone Libertarian here. Anyway here's this Socialist's take on Libertarianism as we see it today.

Libertarianism works fine if you are the only person on the planet, or if you believe that your actions have no effect on others around you, nor do their actions have an effect on you (in that case you're free to do whatever takes your fancy). You hold that people should not be coerced from doing something so long as what they do does not violate the equal freedom of others. But in order to protect others from having their freedoms violated, these freedoms need to be identified and legislated for in terms of laws and rights; as a result people need to be coerced into respecting these rights and laws, often much against their will, so bang goes your Libertarian ideal. Once you accept laws protecting rights (including someone's right not to have their property stolen, not to be killed etc.) then the only difference between Libertarianism, Liberalism, or Conservatism is the type of actions you want to restrict people from carrying out.

You hold that everyone is entitled to own 100% of the fruits of his or her labour, but you fail to look at whether the fruits of a person's labour have been allocated fairly to those who labour or whether much of it has been creamed off (to help pay for a directors limo etc.). You object strongly to democratically elected government taking a slice of the fruits of your labour to pay for a welfare safety net for your fellow citizens but you don't object to unelected directors taking a slice of the fruits of your labour to pay for their private jets etc. (I suppose it all depends who you'd rather take a slice of the fruitys of your labour)I'd say that everybody should be entitled to the fruits of their labour (as opposed to getting a slice of the fruits of their labour, while corporate directors etc. take the rest). You say that individual property rights must be protected at all costs, but you fail to look at whether the system for assigning these property rights was correct in the first place, whether what people own should rightly belong to them or not.

Libertarianism as an ideal sounds good but as a political system it is unworkable, but what poses as Libertarianism today is nothing more than Conservatism without the interference of the moralistic religious right. Its just old-fashioned Conservatism.

I don't view it as evil (as you view Socialism; and anyway viewing something as pure evil is not at all very Libertarian of you) anymore than I view Capitalism as evil (Capitalism is just a system destined to collapse).

Anyway that's my take on Libertarianism.
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Ieuan
post Feb 13 2005, 06:41 PM
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First Plank: Abolition of property in land and the application of all rents of land to public purposes. (Zoning - Model ordinances proposed by Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover widely adopted. Supreme Court ruled "zoning" to be "constitutional" in 1921. Private owners of property required to get permission from government relative to the use of their property. Federally owned lands are leased for grazing, mining, timber usages, the fees being paid into the U.S. Treasury.)

What escapes me is why they do not mention the fact that when you buy land you do not have an allodial title. As far as I know Texas is the only state where one can acquire an allodial title.

The county I live in currently wants to put a meter on my water well and charge me for water.

If they do this I will be more than happy to pay for the water that passes under my, ooops their, land. I will charge them rent on the pump that I own. I think $10,000 a month is fair.


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Ieuan
post Feb 13 2005, 06:50 PM
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Hobgolbin, I thank you for the post and it will take time to digest before I respond.

I have never claimed to be a speaker for the Libertarian Party. There are things about my platform I dislike. No one system is perfect.

I would like you to ponder this: I'm a Libertarian that does greatly care for my fellow man. I care for those I even detest - example my mother from a previous thread - but there comes a time when one must realize that the world does not owe you simply because you exist.

In the words of Ben Franklin: "I'm a firm beliver in luck. I find the harder I work the more of it I have"


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Hiram
post Feb 13 2005, 06:54 PM
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The fact about total liberty is that if everyone has it, no one has it. There are bonds that lead to slavery, and bonds that lead to freedom.

Enjoy!


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Ieuan
post Feb 13 2005, 06:56 PM
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I'm daft. Please explain.


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Ieuan
post Feb 13 2005, 07:22 PM
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Let me give part of your post a go Hobgoblin.

Why would you believe that as a Libertarian my philosophy would only work if I were to be the soul survivor? Does this stem from the belief that Libertarians have a F-U attitude because we believe that individuals should provide for themselves?

While I do believe that one should make their best effort to support themselves, this does not mean I’m not willing to lend a hand.

What I have a problem with is the state mandating it, fucking it up, lining their pockets, and leaving the needy in their dust.


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Artemis
post Feb 13 2005, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE
As one of the lone Libertarians on this site, what is it about Libertarianism that ticks off the resident Democrats and Socialists here?


It reminds them that they're losers.


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Ieuan
post Feb 13 2005, 07:59 PM
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Niiiiice


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