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> Who's on your short list?, US Politics
hobgoblin
post Mar 18 2008, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE(ajunkie @ Mar 18 2008, 06:09 PM) *

QUOTE(hobgoblin @ Mar 18 2008, 10:56 AM) *

And so long as the Palestinians are crammed into over-crowded, ghettos, have their houses bulldozed, their land taken, etc etc., by the people who drove them into these ghettos and stole the land and property of their fathers nad grandfathers, then these young children and the people who teach them are hardly likely to have a tolerant attitude to those they view as being their persecutors are they?


You really believe this is isolated to Arab Palestinian children? Those ghettos are reinforced by Radical Islamic teachings. Is it remotely possible that Radical Islam has had a hand in shaping those ghettos as a political tool?


I never said that belief was isolated to Palestinian children, and of course radical Islam will take advantage of any opportunity to gain political influence.

However the fact remains that the ghettos that are breeding this ethos were created by Israel and are maintained by Israel. The fact remains that the people in these ghetto were forced from their land and their property by Israel and are kept inside these cramped ghettos by Israel. You can hardly expect the people in these ghettos to have a tolerant, positive attitude towards Israel can you? Naturally extremists will take full advantage of the hatred that exists when people are oppressed, that is pretty much a no-brainer. Or do you believe that Israel herself is in no way responsible for the animosity that Palestinian refugees feel towards her?
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Nephrite
post Mar 18 2008, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Mar 18 2008, 11:24 AM) *

Care to explain how this silly debate between the pro-Israel and pro-Palestine contingents about who deserves to hold the biggest grudge and who deserves to "retaliate" and "defend" themselves the most is going to accomplish anything? It's not even consciousness raising, it's only recrimination and blame, and out of breath.


It's not accomplish anything other than give people with little historical knowledge a better grasp on what got us here today. Many Israelis do want peace. The government handed over Sinai and Gaza. Rockets are now coming out of Gaza. What should they do next? What would you do if you were Ehud Olmert?

QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Mar 18 2008, 11:24 AM) *

It's pretty clear you are in the latter camp, and thus have little potential to be part of any solution.


Wanna bet? Join us and PM me for details.


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sixela
post Mar 18 2008, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE(ajunkie @ Mar 18 2008, 07:07 PM) *

What we really need to take a hard look at is how these quotes are being used in Radical Islam.

What you really need to do is stop shifting the argument, and stop amalgamating the Qu'ran, moderate islam, radical islamists, war mongerers and all other Palestinians.

If I wanted to show Christianity or even Judaism in a sinister light, there are plenty of quotes to be found.



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Nephrite
post Mar 18 2008, 06:53 PM
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Are the sinister practices of Christianity/Judaism being endorsed and enforced as modern day acceptable practices? That is a glaring difference.

Jesus was a lot more tame in his teachings than Mohammed yet we had the the Dark Ages and Inquisition. I can't imagine what Islam has in store for the rest of us Infidels if reformists and moderates don't take over Islam.

Maybe we should also have a closer look at The historical religious union of Judaism and Islam. That seems to me like a good place to start a peace process transcendent to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


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absinthist
post Mar 18 2008, 07:15 PM
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Fang: You are hereby charged that you did on diverse dates commit heresy against the Holy Church. 'My old man said follow the--'


From now on Poland welcomed circa 10080 of Chechnyan refugees in 2007 alone, they have been provided food, shelter and sympathy. So, I would be far from calling that information an ignorance-they are really coming here to flee from Putin's persecution machine.


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Nephrite
post Mar 18 2008, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE(Jaded Prol @ Mar 18 2008, 04:59 AM) *

You recite the myths flawlessly.
Absent is any mention of the terroristic attacks and destruction of Palestinian villages causing many to flee into the desperate refugee status that has shaped them since. Sixer points to the real irony or the situation -- that a people who had suffered a thousand years of every kind of violence and degradation could turn around and do the same to others. That this is the case is not unanimously supported in Israel and there are people on both sides of the issue who sincerely want and work for peace.


The fact remains that since 1948, Israel has made genuine efforts to resolve the crisis peacefully. Israel has a right to protect its people and this includes holding the high ground in Judea and Samaria.

1) Israel peacefully gave up the Sinai - a land that is twice the size of Israel and one containing oil.

2) Israel left most of the West Bank, including Jerico. Israel is willing to exchange land in order to keep its West Bank settlements.

3) Israel transfered over 8,000 Jews out of Gaza, dug up its graves, but left the Jewish agricultural infrastructure standing. This was the first transfer of a population since Pakistan was created in the heart of India (also in 1948). The Jewish settlers in Gaza built some of the most state-of-the-art agricultural facilities in the world which the Palestinians destroyed rather than use to improve their economic situation.

No sooner had Israel left Gaza than Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Fatah started firing rockets into Sderot. No sooner had Israel signed the Oslo Accords in 1993, than Arafat started an Intifada which killed over 1,000 Israelis between 1993 and 2000.

Sadly, the vast majority of Palestinians have been infected with the worst Jew-hatred since Hitler. This hatred existed before the state of Israel. See any link to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem regarding Haj Amin al Husseini.


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sixela
post Mar 18 2008, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE(ajunkie @ Mar 18 2008, 07:44 PM) *

The government handed over Sinai and Gaza.

And Israel is no longer at war with Egypt.

QUOTE
Rockets are now coming out of Gaza. What should they do next?

Well, not what they're doing now. I should point out that Hamas, by the way, is very much partly a creature of Israel, and so is its popularity and its political stance.

QUOTE
What would you do if you were Ehud Olmert?

Pull my head out of my arse. Even Sharon eventually "got it", as had Ehud Barak and Yitzak Rabin before him. Sadly, the first one had a stroke, the second one got replaced by the first, and the third one got killed.

Retaliation is often unethical (but sometimes the ethical implications aren't clear cut). When it's ineffective and even counterproductive, it's just plainly stupid, so you don't even have to ask yourself those tough questions.

Ehud Olmert is indeed wondering what to do - that's just the problem. He's just going through the motions without even a shred of a vision of where he wants to go and how to get there.


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sixela
post Mar 18 2008, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE(ajunkie @ Mar 18 2008, 08:16 PM) *

Sadly, the vast majority of Palestinians have been infected with the worst Jew-hatred since Hitler. This hatred existed before the state of Israel.


If you have a fire breathing monster in your back yard, you starve it, you don't feed it.


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sixela
post Mar 18 2008, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE(ajunkie @ Mar 18 2008, 07:53 PM) *

Are the sinister practices of Christianity/Judaism being endorsed and enforced as modern day acceptable practices? That is a glaring difference.

Yes, and one with geopolitical and social roots, not religious ones. Remember who basically kicked out the Jews out of Spain in the medieval period?

Every religion (and even culture) has its crackpots. Whether people listen to them or to the voices of reason, though, is something that *isn't* just the fruit of chance happenings (unless you hold the view that humanity is doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again).


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Nephrite
post Mar 18 2008, 07:27 PM
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Amin Al Husseini (allegedly great-uncle of Arafat), with strong ties to the Nazi Party, was more than a mere crackpot. He later joined the Nazi Party and was close to Goebbels and Hitler. Radical Islam is the legacy of Amin Al Husseini. Amin Al Husseini, is Arafatís ďheroĒ.

You've made your position quite clear. So, if you were invited to work with moderate Palistinians/Arabs and Israeli citizens, using your valuable time to help cultivate a peaceful solution, would you be able to spare as much time as on the posts you so proudly stand by?


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Donnie Darko
post Mar 18 2008, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE(ajunkie @ Mar 18 2008, 03:16 PM) *

Sadly, the vast majority of Palestinians have been infected with the worst Jew-hatred since Hitler.


How is branding the vast majority of Palestinians as being nearly as hateful as Hitler going to accomplish anything? Do you know how to talk about the situation in terms not involving perpetual recrimination?
Any room for giving Palestinians any benefit of the doubt?

As long as the discussion is about how most Palestinians are pit-bulls with AIDS, Israel isn't going to see any positive outcome. And the same applies to Palestinians and much of the middle-East Islamic population who blame Israel for everything and perpetuate anti-semitism. I'm all for cutting off the roots of radical Islam, but it's about bigger issues and ideas than who is to blame for a middle-East dust bowl land dispute. Who was it that won between the Hatfields and McCoys?
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Nephrite
post Mar 18 2008, 08:03 PM
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QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Mar 18 2008, 12:52 PM) *

How is branding the vast majority of Palestinians as being nearly as hateful as Hitler going to accomplish anything?


Did I say the vast majority of Palestinians are as hateful as Hitler? Did it occur to you that there may be a minority of Palestinians with guns and power pushing it's people and children to accept Radical Islam and the obliteration of Israel? I'm certain once Israel is gone they'll go back to killing each other in greater numbers if Radical Islam isn't reformed by then.

There's a good chance many Palestinian citizens feel like the Germans did under Hitler. Who the hell wants to get in the way and protest Hitler if his men are right around the corner?

QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Mar 18 2008, 12:52 PM) *

Do you know how to talk about the situation in terms not involving perpetual recrimination?
Any room for giving Palestinians any benefit of the doubt?


Yeah, let's start with Projects working for peace among Arabs and Israelis.

QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Mar 18 2008, 12:52 PM) *

As long as the discussion is about how most Palestinians are pit-bulls with AIDS, Israel isn't going to see any positive outcome. And the same applies to Palestinians and much of the middle-East Islamic population who blame Israel for everything and perpetuate anti-semitism.


Only the Radicals in power can be compared to pit-bulls with AIDSÖ the rest are cattle if they can't organize and fight back. I'm talking about moderate Arabs. There's quite a few of them fleeing to Israel for sanctuary. Israel also saved Darfur refugees.


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sixela
post Mar 18 2008, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE(ajunkie @ Mar 18 2008, 08:27 PM) *

So, if you were invited to work with moderate Palistinians/Arabs and Israeli citizens, using your valuable time to help cultivate a peaceful solution, would you be able to spare as much time as on the posts you so proudly stand by?


I do my bit in this world, you do yours.


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sixela
post Mar 18 2008, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE(ajunkie @ Mar 18 2008, 09:03 PM) *

Did it occur to you that there may be a minority of Palestinians with guns and power pushing it's people to accept Radical Islam and the obliteration of Israel?

If you'd care to read all the posts here, you'd know we're in violent agreement with that. You can't fill the holes in your arguments with the earth from that hill, though.

QUOTE
Yeah, let's start with Projects working for peace among Arabs and Israelis.

No argument from me, but it's a fallacy to think that getting the politicians to get their heads out of their arse and working from the grass roots is an either/or proposition.


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Nephrite
post Mar 18 2008, 08:11 PM
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So, what do you suggest our next steps be? Let's take the focus off the brain dead politicians and focus on the citizens and movements for peace over the next few pages instead.

At the moment I have got to focus on work so I can pay bills.


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