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> Question to FV, -- not sure if this is the right place to post this topic --
Shabba53
post Apr 15 2010, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE(Tibro @ Apr 15 2010, 07:25 PM) *

Propaganda, as in offering the proper edumacational informations.

Normally when that word is used, it is assigned a negative connotation. Which I'm sure was your intent.
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Tibro
post Apr 15 2010, 11:49 PM
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That's right, any dissenters at WS come here and say whatever they want. No exceptions.

QUOTE

Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da

2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person


Propaganda is the dissemination of ideas and information. FV and WS are both propaganda machines. Except here at FV Oxy doesn't take careful aim to control all the opinions expressed and which should suppressed.

Clearly you have no fucking clue what my intent is when I use language, and use it appropriately.


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isn't there --
to retain my sanity.

Then I try to convince myself that it is.

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Shabba53
post Apr 15 2010, 11:54 PM
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And how many people in the past few years have left the WS to come here and bitch about it? They're coming over in droves, are they?

Let me turn that around. How many people have left FV, and instead joined the WS, or joined WS solely because they didn't like the atmosphere here?

I think we know which way the scales tip on those two questions.

I have more than a clue, just based on your past actions. Hell, I might know you better than you know yourself.
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Artemis
post Apr 16 2010, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE
How many times have you seen Fee Verte referenced in an article?


I don't look. I don't care. The Internet long ago supplanted "the press" as the prime source of information. It doesn't matter what "the press" says anymore. So now, "the press" (like everyone else) is getting their information from the Internet? So they can what, pass it along to the handful of people who don't have access to the Internet, or to the lazy, or to the luddites? And we have to be nice to make sure they linger long enough to learn something worthwhile before passing it along to the insignificant number of people who for some bizarre reason chose not to bypass "the press" and go directly to the source? But maybe by "the press" you don't mean printed material, but websites run by "the press"? In what way are they more legitimate than this place? They're not. They're johnny come lately, profit-driven, would-be high priests of information too stubborn and conceited to understand that there's a new religion in town.

QUOTE
The problem is wading through all of the flaming and vitriol.


I've never found the level of flaming and vitriol here or on any other forum too much for me to handle. Time for "the press" and everybody else to man up. If I can do it, they can do it. I guess it depends upon how bad you want to learn something. That also goes for all the thin-skinned who allegedly turn their noses up at the (mostly long ago dried-up) blood here.

QUOTE
Understand that many journalists are under deadlines and are looking for quick answers. If they have to dig through 3 pages of insults and arguments to find 2 or 3 posts of good information, they'll look somewhere else.


Understand what I and some others had to dig through for YEARS, in obscure places, in foreign languages, at legal risk in some cases, and you may understand why I have no sympathy for people who want quick answers.
I am a writer by profession and have been for most of my adult life. I have always valued GOOD answers, have never cared how hard I had to work to get them, have been wary of quick answers, and have never let a deadline come before accuracy. In any case, only an idiot would dig through three pages of anything to find an answer when a search engine is available. I would submit that digging through three pages of "how are you, I had a nice day today, that's political so let's not discuss it further, and I just love that new (insert name of shitty "absinthe")" is every bit as tedious as sifting through three pages of insults and arguments, and a lot less entertaining, but that's just me.

QUOTE
So, do you think that this site has the potential to reach more people than say, an article written in Reuters, or Robb Report, or Denver Post? Which has better potential to inform more people?


I know for a fact that this site has the potential to reach anybody that any of those things reaches. Anybody can click a mouse. As to whether said people will be more accurately informed here than by those sources, it's here, period, end of story. Anybody who doubts that is a fool.

QUOTE
But the credibility most certainly is tainted if a newcomer or researcher ventures into the forums and sees very little substantive discussion anymore.


Using that logic, someone who doesn't talk much is probably a liar. Besides, the archives talk.

QUOTE
Just look at the statistics regarding unique visits


http://siteanalytics.compete.com/wormwoods...om/?metric=sess

Pretty close and getting closer.

QUOTE
Just look at the statistics regarding unique visits and even visits by established members. Active discussions have all but disappeared. Most of the people who are major resources don't even post anymore. Do you think that's a coincidence?


A coincidence with what? The supposedly offensive tone of this place? I think Aggelos nailed it in his response at WWS. People aren't likely to get engaged in trivial conversation here - that's why some old hands don't post, and that's why some newcomers are intimidated. As to departed established members, some turned pro. Some got bored. Some quit drinking. Some grew up. Some died. Some got their feelings hurt and left. I know which ones I miss the least.


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Il arrive souvent que les personnes couvertes d’esprit enflamme courent en appelant du secours.
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Shabba53
post Apr 16 2010, 12:49 AM
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QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 15 2010, 08:37 PM) *
But maybe by "the press" you don't mean printed material, but websites run by "the press"? In what way are they more legitimate than this place? They're not.
Correct. But they have hundreds of thousands more readers.

QUOTE
They're johnny come lately, profit-driven, would-be high priests of information too stubborn and conceited to understand that there's a new religion in town.
No argument there.

QUOTE
I've never found the level of flaming and vitriol here or on any other forum too much for me to handle.
But there are hardcore forumites, and there are normal people. The normal people outnumber us dramatically.

QUOTE
I guess it depends upon how bad you want to learn something.
The general public has an attention span shorter than [insert witty short joke here]. You know that. Absinthe isn't important enough to most people to wade through it all.

QUOTE
Understand what I and some others had to dig through for YEARS, in obscure places, in foreign languages, at legal risk in some cases, and you may understand why I have no sympathy for people who want quick answers.
I DO understand. And I hold you and the rest of those researchers in the highest esteem.

QUOTE
I have always valued GOOD answers, have never cared how hard I had to work to get them, have been wary of quick answers, and have never let a deadline come before accuracy.
Which is why you're a better writer than most, and probably just a better person in general.

QUOTE
As to whether said people will be more accurately informed here than by those sources, it's here, period, end of story. Anybody who doubts that is a fool.
You know I don't doubt that. But it's a numbers game.

QUOTE
Using that logic, someone who doesn't talk much is probably a liar. Besides, the archives talk.
Just calling out the facts as I've heard them from people who have done exactly what I told you.

QUOTE
Pretty close and getting closer.
You mean for the month? Look longer term.
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Artemis
post Apr 16 2010, 01:06 AM
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Yes, just a month. There may or may not be a trend.

So it seems we have agreement on some points. I guess I just don't have much time for the "general public", or much respect for them honestly. I've never seen it as my mission and it certainly wasn't my desire to educate them. I just found a place where I was comfortable talking about something that fueled my interest with people whom I found to be largely tolerable and at times brilliant. If people in the shadows learned something or were entertained, good. If not, still good.

Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it.


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Il arrive souvent que les personnes couvertes d’esprit enflamme courent en appelant du secours.
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Shabba53
post Apr 16 2010, 01:09 AM
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Nothing to argue about there. As I've always said. There are people who find each place enjoyable. I'm one of them. I enjoy a spirited debate every once in a while.

It's always been a passion of mine to educate. Which is really why I started my practice. It was an easy transition to do so as a hobby too. Especially with something like absinthe, which has such a convoluted and fascinating history.
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mgs
post Apr 16 2010, 01:16 AM
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if you guys want a coffee, I can make a Brazilian coffee that is the best and usually "calms down" anyone…. just show up in my place …..

thanks for all the information. I did not want to bring old and dead discussions… I just wanted to understand the forums FV and WS. They are really different, for sure, even a newcomer can easily catch.

and…. yes…. it was my fault to post on "Under the Bridge" but I did not find a general area for general announcements….. or maybe I missed, I don't know…


- Marccelo



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Artemis
post Apr 16 2010, 01:24 AM
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It's all good. I would be happy to take you up on the coffee, mgs. I'm much more likely to drink that than absinthe (or any other liquor) these days.

The discussion is old, but it was never dead - it has always simmered under the surface.

And speaking only for myself, I'm so calm I'm almost dead. But my keyboard throws sparks, sometimes I even get burned.


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Il arrive souvent que les personnes couvertes d’esprit enflamme courent en appelant du secours.
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Donnie Darko
post Apr 16 2010, 03:16 AM
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QUOTE(Artemis @ Apr 15 2010, 08:37 PM) *


Understand what I and some others had to dig through for YEARS, in obscure places, in foreign languages, at legal risk in some cases, and you may understand why I have no sympathy for people who want quick answers.
I am a writer by profession and have been for most of my adult life. I have always valued GOOD answers, have never cared how hard I had to work to get them, have been wary of quick answers, and have never let a deadline come before accuracy.


I barely have time to read forums anymore, but the above quote alone was worth much more than the time spent reading it. You just summed up the entire problem with "journalism" today, not just divergent preferences regarding forum nuances. One can find good answers both here and at Wormwood Society. As for comfort, I feel I can be myself here more than there, so that's why I'm here, but many find their "self" fits best over there. Whatever.

But in terms of answers, where did those answers come from in the first place? That is a fucking FAR more interesting question than some dipshit argument about which forum is best. Real information comes from people who looked into the subject exhaustively and skeptically, because they cared about it and cared about accuracy, and cared enough about the process of learning it to share it with those who were likewise passionate.

And then there are the people who love sounding like an authority on things but rarely if ever are, which is the realm of journalists and distributors of information, whether they be part of a newspaper or on TV or an internet forum. It's the realm of those who try to repeat and condense information from elsewhere and usually either get it wrong or manipulate it for their own purposes. One must be able to distill knowledge properly just like one must distill absinthe properly: with attention to detail, to look underneath the surface, and to not settle for what is easy or fits a predefined answer.

Sorry for sounding so philosophical and pretentious, but sometimes that's just me.

And welcome Marccello. You seem like an interesting person.
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Patlow
post Apr 16 2010, 03:31 AM
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Shabba-

When I said your post sounded pompous, I didn't have a problem with any of the actual words that you typed and I have nothing against you (I've seen you speak online, and I think you're a very likable bloke).

It's more of your (seemingly endless) unwillingness to let anything go and to always insist on having the last word. I feel like that attitude is omnipresent in so many threads here.

I too am a writer by profession (and I have even published on the topic of absinthe) so I detest censorship and that whole, "Get your own show" mentality. It offends me on a professional and even personal level.

FV might be a desert to you, but it's my internet absinthe home, and I don't like seeing shit slug at my house.

And if some have left FV or don't post here anymore b/c they've been offended while the WS is on fire, well, enjoy the burn. I won't be buying the next Jonas Brothers' album either.

I like my rock dirty, like my absinthe forum. I don't ever want this place to suffer the fate of Times Square at the hands of a Disneyland mentality.

Cheers, dude… And cheers to FV!

absintheglass-glow2.gif


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Shabba53
post Apr 16 2010, 04:03 AM
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I completely understand where you're coming from, yet:

QUOTE(Patlow @ Apr 15 2010, 11:31 PM) *
but it's my internet absinthe home, and I don't like seeing shit slug at my house.

Why am I to blame for reacting to accusations? Why is no blame placed on those to sling the first stone? What about those who instead of sticking to the issue, turn it into personal attacks.

I'm sorry, but I've very rarely, if ever, been the person to start an attack. I've turned my cheek many a time. I've let plenty go. I let enough go on another forum that Tibro got bored and left after he realized he wouldn't be getting any more attention. I only jumped in on this conversation because I knew I was expected to.

If you want less shit to be slung, then maybe efforts should be made to stop it from starting in the first place instead of only calling out the person who defended themselves.

Is the problem really me, for getting the last word, or is it at least partially the fault of those who get the first?

If I came up to you in a bar and called you a prick and threw a drink in your face, should I be surprised that you might retaliate? Would it be your fault for getting pissed at my actions, or would the blame fall mainly on me for being the prick in the first place?
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Patlow
post Apr 16 2010, 04:26 AM
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QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Apr 15 2010, 08:03 PM) *

I completely understand where you're coming from, yet:

If I came up to you in a bar and called you a prick and threw a drink in your face, should I be surprised that you might retaliate? Would it be your fault for getting pissed at my actions, or would the blame fall mainly on me for being the prick in the first place?


Kung Fu has taught me NOT to fight. No need to kill someone who wants your wallet, just break the hand reaching for it and walk away with the wallet intact.

(Where do you live? I can recommend a Kung Fu school for you! It might help!)

Anyhoo… It's late here…

I get where you're coming from too…

Cheers!


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Patlow
post Apr 16 2010, 05:02 AM
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That being said, I'd didn't mean to get all "Kum bay ya" on the last post.

Your post that I commented on did offend me.

I just don't want to perpetuate it.


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Shabba53
post Apr 16 2010, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE(Patlow @ Apr 16 2010, 01:02 AM) *
Your post that I commented on did offend me.

Well, that wasn't my intent, so I apologize for another example of unintended consequences.

As to your reference, the breaking of the hand is a reaction. What you explained to me basically means you should let them take your wallet and not respond at all.
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