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> New York Times Article
Artemis
post Jul 8 2014, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE(Jack Batemaster @ Jul 8 2014, 06:55 PM) *
du Gard
ou
de garde?

Apparently it's du Gard. I can find no references to fenouil de Gard (damned few for du Gard). The grammatic differences between de and du would vex a saint. Apparently it's something French speakers do naturally but have a hard time explaining.


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Artemis
post Jul 8 2014, 10:11 PM
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Or I have a hard time understanding.
http://www.rocketlanguages.com/your-commun...ammar/du-vs-de/
QUOTE
DE and DU are not interchangeable.
'Du' is used as a preposition meaning 'of' or as an adjective meaning 'any/some.'

'De' means 'of/from' in when relating to a noun.

I hope this example sentences help to clarify.

I'd like a slice of bread = Je voudrais une tranche de pain
I'd like some bread = Je voudrais du pain

L'eau a un goût de vin = The water tastes like (of) wine
J'aime le goût du vin = I like the taste of wine


These examples don't help to clarify a thing from a place, but it would seem that it should be "de Gard" based upon the explanation from an alleged master of French.

The moral of the story is, French is fucked up. There's no way to be right, especially if you're a Belgian or an American.


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sbmac
post Jul 8 2014, 10:31 PM
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My understanding of the fennel thing, as a new student of this subject of various fennels, is that florence fennel is a bulb version of the plant, while the fennel doux, is the non-bulb version of fennel, grown for seed. One of the confusing factors, is that seed and spice companies will often throw all the names together under the heading, in parenthesis, like this: Fennel Seed (Common fennel, sweet fennel, florence fennel). It confused the shit out of me until Eric helped me understand that the seed I'd been sent, was the high-quality herb variety, grown for seed, not the bulb type.

The seeds in bulb fennel will vary, and the vulgar or common fennel is nasty stuff for absinthe. I've had some HGs made by folks who buy this stuff from spice shops, and it's just wrong for absinthe. Florence fennel, though bulb variety, is still really tasty stuff, though it is not typically grown for its seed, but for its bulbs.

If I'm not mistaken, the amazing fennel sold by Kirk, is the herb, non-bulb variety, that is grown for seed. These seeds are exceptionally great. Again, please let me know if I'm wrong about any of this.
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Jack Batemaster
post Jul 8 2014, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE(Artemis @ Jul 8 2014, 03:11 PM) *

Or I have a hard time understanding.
http://www.rocketlanguages.com/your-commun…ammar/du-vs-de/
QUOTE
DE and DU are not interchangeable.
'Du' is used as a preposition meaning 'of' or as an adjective meaning 'any/some.'

'De' means 'of/from' in when relating to a noun.

I hope this example sentences help to clarify.

I'd like a slice of bread = Je voudrais une tranche de pain
I'd like some bread = Je voudrais du pain

L'eau a un goût de vin = The water tastes like (of) wine
J'aime le goût du vin = I like the taste of wine


These examples don't help to clarify a thing from a place, but it would seem that it should be "de Gard" based upon the explanation from an alleged master of French.

The moral of the story is, French is fucked up. There's no way to be right, especially if you're a Belgian or an American.


En fait, je pense que parce que le «Gard» est une région et la dernière lettre n'est pas une voyelle : on utilise «du». Si le «Gard» est une ville (pas une region ou un pays), on utilise «de». Si on épelle le «Gard» comme «Garde», on utilise aussi «de».




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Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
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Jack Batemaster
post Jul 8 2014, 10:51 PM
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Je viens du Maroc.
Je viens de France.
Je viens des États-Unis.
Je viens du Washington.
Je viens de Californie.
Je viens de Seattle.
Je viens de Los Angeles.


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Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
Mon but est simplement d'obtenir Ricard hors de l'absinthe, juste lêchez le reste d'entre eux …
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Artemis
post Jul 8 2014, 11:21 PM
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QUOTE
Again, please let me know if I'm wrong about any of this.

I wouldn't quibble with it, except that I have always been under the impression, based upon the fact that so many old texts about absinthe refer to Florence fennel, that Florence fennel was at that time, apart from whatever status it had as a vegetable, also grown for seed, and those seeds were used in absinthe and apparently preferred, at least by some distillers of repute, for making absinthe.
It has been my assumption that after absinthe was banned, there was no longer a market for Florence fennel seed, other than for planting more fennel for eating, so the supply of said seed was greatly diminished. Obviously the same would be true of any fennel grown for seed for the absinthe industry. Today it may be the case that Florence fennel is grown more for the bulbs than for the seed, but it wouldn't surprise me if the seed market is making a recovery. My comment about it being preferable is based upon a study of the types and amounts of essential oils found in numerous fennels. Some are tasty in absinthe (anethole) some are not (fenchone) and some are a matter of taste (limonene). Keep in mind that there are several varieties of Florence fennel as well. And as you said, the terms being used loosely has always been a problem - that's what led me to make the study in the first place. It is of course possible that in these old texts, something other than a bulb-producing plant was meant by "Florence fennel", but you can bet your ass that whatever it was not, it WAS a sweet fennel producing seeds with high anethole and low fenchone content. I have rested satisfied lo these ten years that when they said Florence fennel, that's exactly what they meant, but obviously that's risky today, much less across a distance of more than 100 years.


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Artemis
post Jul 8 2014, 11:29 PM
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QUOTE
was the high-quality herb variety, grown for seed, not the bulb type

To be clear, all fennel produces seed (or will if it's allowed to go to seed), as far as I know. Florence fennel, and maybe some others, produces a bulb-like structure that's eaten as a vegetable. The bulb itself, as far as absinthe is concerned, was never in the discussion.


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Artemis
post Jul 8 2014, 11:45 PM
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QUOTE
Je viens du Maroc.
Je viens de France.
Je viens des États-Unis.
Je viens du Washington.
Je viens de Californie.
Je viens de Seattle.
Je viens de Los Angeles.


Casey Jones with the yellow pants
Tried to go to heaven but he went to France


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sbmac
post Jul 9 2014, 12:17 AM
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Artemis, you got me thinking, and then I realized I had a small bottle of Devoille's fennel distillate, from the samples Ian had made up for LDF, of the various herbs, distilled. I opened the fennel bottle and took a sniff. It smelled just like vulgare. I looked at the label, and yes… that's what he used. Common fennel, not florence. So I mixed up a correct portion of AA, Anise, and his fennel distillates, and I got what tastes like absinthe made with crappy fennel. Go figure. It has the distinct funky flavor that common fennel seeds have, as well as the same aroma. You helped me nail something down, so thank you. It is a flavor that I've noticed in quite a few absinthes, and is proof that there are distillers taking the low road with vulgare. Kirk's fennel in contrast, tastes like candy.

Kirk, BTW, those chamomile blossoms you sent were so off-the- hook amazing, I have no words.
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Artemis
post Jul 9 2014, 12:24 AM
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But even the sweet fennels are broadly classified as vulgare. I long ago decided that you only know what you've got when you've got it, and you know what you've got because you know it (i.e., recognize it from personal experience), usually by having learned the hard way.
QUOTE
It has the distinct funky flavor that common fennel seeds have, as well as the same aroma.

Fenchone. I believe the EU regulates fenchone in absinthe, which is not as misguided as regulation of chop.gif . I seem to remember that there are possible issues with limonene (carcinogen?) as well, and I have to wonder about the possible connection of Spanish Lemon Pledge™ absinthes such as La Sala with poorly selected fennel.


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Kirk
post Jul 9 2014, 01:02 AM
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What I have is Fennel Doux, FOENICULUM vulgare DULCE, a non bulb forming fennel. Florence fennel is Foeniculum vulgare azoricum it forms a bulb and is grown mainly for that bulb, commonly called finnochio or sometimes anis. To confuse things further, other types of non bulb forming fennel are used as ingredients in food, namely Indian fennel, bronze fennel, 'Purpureum' or 'Nigra', bronze-leaved, these are not good at all in absinthe.
Florence fennel is best used as a vegetable, the bulb and in sausage, the seed. Distilled florence fennel tastes to me like sausage, distilled doux tastes more like candy, candy is good. I've had good absinthe made with florence fennel, but it smelled and tasted like italian sausage.


I excerpted this from an email from a knowledgeable supplier:
"Out of France Our usual sourcing is Egypt and India. I dont know Turkey and Syria quality
The main difference between fennel is their contents in anethol and estragol
Egypt and India small content in anethol, strong content in estragol and the contrary in french fennel
As to the relation between price and quantity: there is no relation for french fennel because the quantities produced are small and every crop is sold immediatly when made and often before".


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Artemis
post Jul 9 2014, 01:22 AM
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I don't remember any discussion of estragole in the research material, but apparently it also has an anise-like flavor. Apparently it's also carcinogenic. Interesting about the sausage. It's entirely possible that the old references to Florence fennel were really about one or more non-bulb producing sweet fennels, and they were using the term broadly out of custom or ignorance.
The crux of the biscuit is that fennel seeds with as much anethole as possible, and as little as possible of everything else, or almost everything else, are best for absinthe.


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Steve
post Jul 9 2014, 01:47 AM
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QUOTE(Artemis @ Jul 8 2014, 04:19 AM) *

now that I think about it, there was probably a failure to communicate - I'm confident he was talking about fennel.


Nope. We (Marc, Sevil, Rob Fritz and myself) recently visited Christophe Racine and he said exactly the same thing about wormwood, pharmaceutical and farmed. He had samples of each that he had us smell. The pharmaceutical wormwood smelled like… nothing.
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Kirk
post Jul 9 2014, 02:38 AM
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Purdue study of essentialoils fennel
Estragole


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Artemis
post Jul 9 2014, 05:00 AM
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I have that study, it's part of the research to which I had reference. I even consulted the table several times in the course of making the above posts. But the table calls it methyl chavicol, which is why I missed it - a footnote does equate it with estragole. Thanks.
QUOTE
he said exactly the same thing about wormwood, pharmaceutical and farmed. He had samples of each that he had us smell. The pharmaceutical wormwood smelled like… nothing.

Okay then. Maybe he held out a handful of wormwood seeds too. But I've had enough absinthe with the "wrong" wormwood and the "wrong" fennel to know that the former isn't as fragrant as it could be (smells like nothing), while the latter smells like something, and that something is not good. Maybe most Swiss clandestine distillers were using lesser quality wormwood (all of them? - bullshit), but I what I tasted in those Bleues wasn't that.
QUOTE
Is that what made most Swiss la bleues, from what I've read from reviews, to have been almost carbon copies of each other, and just "ok"?
QUOTE
Now that the Swiss are again farming their own wormwood, the la bleues of today would be better now than just a few short years ago?

Yes and yes, if you want a simplified version, and a Swiss pharmacist ought to know. Swiss meter maids know more about absinthe than anybody in America.


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