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Jaded Prole
For those who whant to listen to Bush's drivel, heres a drinking game to help deal with it appropriately.
Donnie Darko
Here's my state of the union drinking game:
Pour a glass of Absinthe, change the channel and watch something more interesting, like the TV guide channel or Weather channel.
traineraz
Ahh, the "head-in-sand" approach.

It's worked so well for us thus far, eh?
Breson
Should have watched it. It went very well.
Jaded Prole
QUOTE
Pour a glass of Absinthe, change the channel and watch something more interesting, like the TV guide channel or Weather channel.


Actually, I poured several glasses and listened to jazz.

I'm sure we'll all be hearing the disected spin for weeks. I don't want that little creep's lying voice in my space.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE (Breson @ Feb 3 2005, 02:20 AM)
Should have watched it. It went very well.

You mean he didn't flub any of the lines he was reading off the teleprompter?
Breson
Lots of good ideas. he is painting a target on his back over this Social Security debaucle, but it is time someone stood up and began taking steps to fix it.

The democrats better come up with some real solutions rather than just taking shots at everyone else's proposals. If they don't their representation with further erode in subsequent elections.

rjordan
This is not about the State of the Union address but the actual state of the union. I couldn't find any other topic on immigration. This seemed like the most appropriate place to put it. And I don't know if this has been posted already here.

Please watch this 'til the end and please don't go on the defensive as soon as you start watching it. It'll just distort the message. Give it a chance and watch it a few times before you start bashing it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=40...65&q=number


gun thug.gif
Donnie Darko
The only problem with immigration as far as I'm concerned is that we don't give an easy path to citizenship for the most potentially productive immigrants. Our universities, which are the best in the world, are full of students on visas who have come here to learn. They learn and achieve at an impressive rate which outpaces our own native citizens, then, rather than offering them citizenship as a reward for their accomplishments (and thereby ensuring their brilliant minds stay in THIS country), we make it very difficult for them to stay in this country by limiting student visas and work visas, eventually forcing them back to their own countries, where they end up in situations worse than here, or they lend their brilliance to those countries, which then compete with us.

THAT is the real immigration problem which nobody talks about. I don't care if my laundry is done by a Korean immigrant or an American. Whoever does the job best deserves to be here, in my opinion.

As for that video, the volume of immigrants is not the problem as far as I can tell. New York City contains a literal deluge of immigrants, and yet its economy is booming. The main problem with immigration here as far as I can tell is a failure on the part of the public education system to provide proper ESL (English as Second Language) classes and training, which is creating assimilation difficulties for immigrants rather than making it easier, and everyone wants assimilation to be easier, whether they are for or against more immigration. Also keep in mind that creating a legal easy path to citizenship for the millions of illegals here now will make abuse of those illegals by exploitive business practices less common, since those workers will now be on the books and easier to monitor. Mass deportation/surveillance is not a feasible option. If we can't find a crippled Islamic radical in a hut somewhere in the middle east, we're not going to be able to find hundreds of millions of illegals, round them all up and ship them out.

What this all really comes down to is xenophobia cloaked in cherry picked statistics. When people bitch about immigrants, nobody is thinking about the Asians and Europeans that come here and work in our labs and our research facilities and teach in our schools and make life better for many of us. They're thinking about Mexicans.
Mashoujiki
QUOTE
Mass deportation/surveillance is not a feasible option.


Especially considering that if you did somehow manage it, you could watch California's whole feudalistic economy sink away as if it were sliding off of the San Andreas fault. When is America going to wake up and realize the constant influx of cheap labor isn't taking anyone's jobs away? This isn't a Steinbeck novel and the traveling bands of european grape pickers don't exist anymore. If someone really wants to bitch about losing jobs to foreigners, shake your fist at India or any of the various Islands around the states like Puerto Rico.
absinthist
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ May 28 2007, 10:30 AM) *

They're thinking about Mexicans.


In Poland, there is not such a problem, we do not have Mexicans, only tequilas harhar.gif ,if like everyone in Eastern Europe we are having lots of problems with minorities.

And as we can see from other European countries, "multi-kulti" is not working and at least not for good. And the most endangered countries right now are UK and France, whereas Germany shall already be called "New Turkey."
Jaded Prole
Poland's minorities have been eliminated, (Before your time, absinthist). Mexicans here are being scapegoated by some for political reasons but the reason for the influx is economic. Nafta and Cafta have wreaked havoc on the economies south of our border. Generally, non-white minorites are more targeted then whites. Nevertheless, immigrants are for the most part a hard working segment. As worse problem for us is emmigration of productive business in the search for cheap labor and unregulated conditions. Our own government encourages this and even funds it through USAID.
absinthist
You would be surprised, how many stayed and carry on defrauding, stealing and tarnishing Poland's good name.

I see your point and I think that emmigration of productive business is a shared (nowadays, many talented and educated young Poles travel abroad with a view for better living and higher salary without a single thought of coming back) one. Sometimes, it is just the government's sole fault that is not able to keep them here longer. And yes, every government finances anything that brings neither wealth nor fame.
Donnie Darko
The only immigration I'm skeptical towards is allowing the immigration of Islamic fundamentalists. It does seem the influx of Jihadist immigrants, who prefer the freedoms and economic incentives offered by the democratic state of England to that of their totalitarian native lands, are a serious problem. I recommend anyone who disagrees with that notion read about "Londonistan" and the results of Tony Blair's open-door policy towards Jihadist anti-semites in the name of so-called "multi-culturalism". No respect-deserving culture (can a radical sect of a faith even be considered "culture"?) I am aware of preaches such rabid anti-multi-culturalism as radical Islam, and yet the preachings of home-grown murderers of 7/7 and numerous Mosques who preach hatred and violence are tolerated and in some cases are even state-funded in the name of promoting so-called "multi-culturalism".

I'm trying to think of a good reason towards extending immigration leniency towards devout immigrant adherents of an intolerant faith, and I can't think of one. Alarmingly, a large number of young Islamic immigrants in Britain say they would prefer a Britain which was ruled under Islamic Sharia law. Just as one should be nervous about an influx of Fascist neo-Nazi immigrants, so one should be nervous about the Jihadist movement that is growing within the borders of England.

That, however, is not so much an immigration problem as it is a problem of the popular tendency to tolerate religious fundamentalism, which stems from faith being universally perceived as synonymous with virtue.
Pataphysician
QUOTE(Jaded Prol @ May 28 2007, 11:35 AM) *

Poland's minorities have been eliminated, (Before your time, absinthist).

QUOTE(absinthist @ May 28 2007, 11:44 AM) *

You would be surprised, how many stayed and carry on defrauding, stealing and tarnishing Poland's good name.


That old solution just wasn't final enough for you, absinthist?
absinthist
I think they problem is more complex, knowing the way" birds of feather flock together", we are for assimilation of aliens (not UFO's harhar.gif ) as long as they support our country, enrich our culture, not destroy it. And they rarely do it.

In 1920, when Poland saved Western Europe from red scum, long before we had made a proposal to Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania to form a federation and it was on good tracks to be successful, remembering the golden ages of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (1569 – 1795).

During the Polish-Bolshevik war we were co-operating with Petlura to help Ukraine regain independence from Soviet Union. When we were having problems on the front, the most helpful were Hungarians who in fact have never betrayed us, the least were Germans and Czechs.

There were of course a lot of animosities between all the nations comprising the Poland of heyday but "final solution" is a strong word as we have not murdered anyone unlike Soviets (total of people murdered by Lenin and Stalin - 34 million) or Germans (total of people murdered in the name of the Reich - (in Poland alone) 123 000 of soldiers, 6 million of civilians, and obviously 21,768 of POWs murdered in Katyn forest).
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(absinthist @ May 29 2007, 06:23 AM) *

I think they problem is more complex, knowing the way" birds of feather flock together", we are for assimilation of aliens (not UFO's harhar.gif ) as long as they support our country, enrich our culture, not destroy it. And they rarely do it.


I don't see how immigration usually "destroys" culture. It sounds to me like you are putting the onus on the immigrant to wholly become exactly like every other native, when in fact immigration is a two way street, in which the immigrant assimilates some things of the native culture and the natives gain some things from the culture the immigrant brings with them. I'm not aware of Poland's immigration "problem" (in fact this is the first time I've ever heard mention of it), but in America, Mexican immigrants bring with them a work ethic and a cuisine which are both desirable for our country, and in exchange they get better living conditions and wages than they had in their native land. It's not like the immigrants just walk in, take everything, and trash the place while contributing nothing in return, though most xenophobes struggle to portray it that way.
Kirk
Yes but, their tax money gets stolen and diverted the same way ours does, that creates an even bigger burden on the already collapsing human services division.
absinthist
Minorities are not immigrants. Immigrants usually quickly assimilate because they want to stay here. For example, there are lot of immigrants from former Soviet republics and not only (like Arabs, Turks making the best shoarma, kebab with the finest hot sauce I have eaten, very friendly and talkative) in Poland and they are treated well.

Still, if minorities (take Germans, for instance) raise question of their so-called "autonomy" and want this they been deprived of (sui juris, btw) back, we shall react.

God forbid I have something against Mexicans, I like their cuisine, drinks, the way of life, though I have not had pleasure of meeting them and I believe no one in Poland would oposse their coming here. So far, we cannot say about the problem of immigration in Poland, so do not get me wrong, more problematic are thousands of young people emigrating abroad.
Jaded Prole
Your distaste for unassimilated minorities is a Polish trait (not unkown here) that resulted in the anti-semitism that made Poles so helpful in the German persecution of Jews. Poland had the largest population of Jews in Europe and it is no coincidence that the Germans located many of their death camps in Poland (Treblinka, Auschwitz . . .). Though some Poles in the resistance sheltered Jews, in many cases Poles helped the SS slaughter entire villages prior to the building of the camps. It is a shame to see that this animosity toward immigrants continues.

There is much anti-immigrant sentiment here with a racist tinge as well. I agree with Donnie that known jihadists and other extremeists should not be admitted but all others are more than welcome. An influx of different cultures enriches any society. As the changes in our environment continue, migrations will rise.
Provenance
There is also the issue of what happened after the war.
absinthist
QUOTE(Jaded Prol @ May 29 2007, 07:06 AM) *

Your distaste for unassimilated minorities is a Polish trait (not unkown here) that resulted in the anti-semitism that made Poles so helpful in the German persecution of Jews. Poland had the largest population of Jews in Europe and it is no coincidence that the Germans located many of their death camps in Poland (Treblinka, Auschwitz . . .). Though some Poles in the resistance sheltered Jews, in many cases Poles helped the SS slaughter entire villages prior to the building of the camps. It is a shame to see that this animosity toward immigrants continues.



It is no surprise that you in America repeat these lies over and over.

It was only in Poland that we were punished with death for sheltering the Jews and others (partisans, even the reds) and in return for many that have survived thanks to numerous Polish families; see these figures: http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous/index_righteous.html we were given red state after the war when 98% of our so-called government were Jewish and wanted to impose upon us Soviet ethics they had been brought up with in Kremlin.

Hey, Jews were even in SS, whereas the most ardent SS-helpers were Ukrainians, btw. I know there was one Polish 14 SS Freiwillige Division "Galizien" but they were fighting the reds to keep Lwow Polish, so it was just the Machiavellian way to save what is ours.

And Poles had rarely occassion for "help" in slaughtering anyone since they were the first to be slaughtered as well (and look how many Poles died actually in those camps, no matter where they had been located).
And there is much difference between anti-semitism which implies hatred towards Arabs as well and anti-judaism which is determined by religious and sometimes political reasons.
Jaded Prole
I think your view of history is a bit twisted. A good example how virulent anti-communism often includes nationalism mixed with racism, or cultural hatreds.


QUOTE
And there is much difference between anti-semitism which implies hatred towards Arabs as well and anti-judaism which is determined by religious and sometimes political reasons.


Thanks for the clarification . . .






. . . and some accused hobgoblin of anti-semeitism . . .
traineraz
QUOTE(Jaded Prol @ May 29 2007, 07:06 AM) *

Your distaste for unassimilated minorities is a Polish trait (not unkown here) that resulted in the anti-semitism that made Poles so helpful in the German persecution of Jews.

It is a shame to see that this animosity toward immigrants continues.

There is much anti-immigrant sentiment here with a racist tinge as well. I agree with Donnie that known jihadists and other extremeists should not be admitted but all others are more than welcome. An influx of different cultures enriches any society. As the changes in our environment continue, migrations will rise.

There is a difference between immigration and invasion.

In the past, immigrants to the US made an effort to assimilate within the dominant culture. They learned the language, and adopted the mainstream values. They came here because they wanted to be American.

Now, many immigrants refuse to assimilate at all. They prefer to live in clusters of "their own kind". In the US, immigrants who refuse to assimilate demand special treatment, like public education in Spanish. They refuse to learn the language, yet demand the ability to vote in Spanish! How can they understand the issues, if they can't even understand the candidates' language?

In some European nations, the demands are even more extreme. In the UK, for example, some are demanding the "right" to enforce Shari'a law. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...9/nsharia29.xml

Those people wish to set up their own country, with their own ways, within someone else's borders. That is not immigration; it is invasion. Calling anyone who does not welcome such invasion a racist or xenophobe is ignoring the very real problems and attempting to eliminate discussion.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(absinthist @ May 29 2007, 11:57 AM) *


It is no surprise that you in America repeat these lies over and over.

It was only in Poland that we were punished with death for sheltering the Jews and others (partisans, even the reds) and in return for many that have survived thanks to numerous Polish families; see these figures: http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous/index_righteous.html


I see no problem with Poland in general, and it's admirable that Poland leads the Yad Vashem "Righteous Among the Nations" titles.

All of that, however, has little to do with your assertion that immigrants generally do not assimilate and more often than not destroy the culture of the native land they immigrate to. Perhaps I am misinterpreting some of what you said due to language barrier issues, but this post --
QUOTE
I think they problem is more complex, knowing the way" birds of feather flock together", we are for assimilation of aliens (not UFO's ) as long as they support our country, enrich our culture, not destroy it. And they rarely do it.
-- seems along the lines of xenophobic assertions found on websites such as corrupt.org which use similar language to foster support for a veiled neo-nazi agenda.

I am not accusing you of anti-semitism, I'm just being sensitive to some of the things you've said which in my opinion lead down a very slippery slope...
absinthist
QUOTE
Those people wish to set up their own country, with their own ways, within someone else's borders. That is not immigration; it is invasion. Calling anyone who does not welcome such invasion a racist or xenophobe is ignoring the very real problems and attempting to eliminate discussion.


That is right, if as I said the problem of invasion is out of question in Poland whereas it is quite evident in Western Europe.

As for Donnie: several minorities (not immigrants per se) like Jews, Germans, Ukrainians or Russians (if you look at the latest Russian-Estonian conflict over Red Army monuments that might hit Poland as well) are doing all their best for their own sake and have been doing so since 1945. Whereas immigrants assimilate very well because paraphrasing traineraz' bold words - they have come here to become Polish citizens. Poles are usually considered to be anti-semites, so no problem since we have got accustomed to it, just like the alcohol poisoning limits do not concern us and Russians biggrin.gif

Obviously, among the aforementioned people, you will, as everywhere else, find very decent, kind persons who are not against us in any kind and carry on being so and moreover are always welcome to come. Good example could be Lithuanians (another minority) who recognized the date of Constitution of 3rd May as their own national holiday.

As for Prolly: I have studied politology at the University of Rzeszow and cannot held responsibility for what our professors have been teaching us. History has always been a twisted subject and the most controversial one. Monarchism is not based on nationalism or racism (depending how you define it) whereas is an example of ideology that is hardcore anti-communist. So is liberal conservatism.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(traineraz @ May 29 2007, 01:00 PM) *

There is a difference between immigration and invasion.

In the past, immigrants to the US made an effort to assimilate within the dominant culture. They learned the language, and adopted the mainstream values. They came here because they wanted to be American.

Now, many immigrants refuse to assimilate at all.


Really? "Many", as in "most of", immigrants refuse to assimilate at all? I am unaware of all these demands by these invader immigrants to refuse assimilation and insist on creating a new Mexico within our borders. It's a popular assertion among Lou Dobbs-heads, but I see little if any evidence of such demands here, and I am wholly surrounded by immigrants. I don't see much wrong with these invader immigrants speaking their own native language anyway, and I don't see how that could possibly cause you or anyone else the slightest bit of harm.

QUOTE
They prefer to live in clusters of "their own kind".


"They" have been doing that since the beginning of immigration to this country. Williamsburg Brooklyn is a cluster of Hasidic Jews who stick to "their own kind". Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn is a cluster of Russian immigrants who stick to "their own kind". Astoria, Queens is a cluser of Greek immigrants who stick to "their own kind". And Westchester is a cluster of affluent wealthy white people who stick to "their own kind". How dare they!

QUOTE
In the US, immigrants who refuse to assimilate demand special treatment, like public education in Spanish. They refuse to learn the language, yet demand the ability to vote in Spanish! How can they understand the issues, if they can't even understand the candidates' language?


Those same Spanish speaking immigrants you deride also enlist to go to Iraq, with the hopes that, if they get killed, their family will get green cards. They are patriots. Immigration happens to be the sincerest form of flattery. The immigrants would rather uproot their entire families, leaving their heritage behind, and live here because they think our country is BETTER than theirs. So what if they want to have Spanish on their ballots? They're not proposing banning English ballots, so it's of no consequence to you.

QUOTE
In some European nations, the demands are even more extreme. In the UK, for example, some are demanding the "right" to enforce Shari'a law. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...9/nsharia29.xml


I agree with you there, but the desire of fundamentalists to enact Sharia law in a country whose freedoms would be entirely undermined by such an act is a far cry from someone requesting a ballot to also be printed in Spanish. One is a reasonable request, the other is an attack on the very freedoms that allow a functional society. I'm sure you can tell the difference.

QUOTE
Those people wish to set up their own country, with their own ways, within someone else's borders.


That may be what Jihadists in Londonistan wish, but again, that is not what Mexican immigrants are pursuing. They are not inisting upon total legal autonomy due to their religious faith. They are not making unconstitutional demands. Those who insist upon Sharia law are, and in my opinion are one step away from the Blackshirt fascists who tried to take over neighborhoods in London and create their own rule of law. Perhaps another Battle of Cable Street is in order.

QUOTE
That is not immigration; it is invasion. Calling anyone who does not welcome such invasion a racist or xenophobe is ignoring the very real problems and attempting to eliminate discussion.


Quite frankly your language is xenophobic. You are referring to Mexican immigrants as invaders. You might as well be calling them cockroaches. I agree that the desire of Jihadists in Europe and UK to pursue Sharia law is more akin to an "invasion", but you have demonstrated no actual problem with printing ballots in Spanish or some classes being taught in Spanish, so your argument against the Mexican "invaders" is on thin ice. The discussion can't go much further until you can legitimately demonstrate why these Mexican "invaders" are so horrible.
traineraz
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ May 29 2007, 09:31 AM) *


Really? "Many", as in "most of", immigrants refuse to assimilate at all? I am unaware of all these demands by these invader immigrants to refuse assimilation and insist on creating a new Mexico within our borders.

"Many" means "a significant number". "Most of" means "the majority". Please do not twist my words to suit your prejudices. Thanks.

QUOTE
It's a popular assertion among Lou Dobbs-heads, but I see little if any evidence of such demands here, and I am wholly surrounded by immigrants. I don't see much wrong with these invader immigrants speaking their own native language anyway, and I don't see how that could possibly cause you or anyone else the slightest bit of harm.

Just off the top of my head:

Cost to hire/train teachers to teach in Spanish
Cost to all students of an inferior education (in either language) due to resources spent on separate-and-unequal curricula
Cost to democracy of voters who can't comprehend the issues being able to vote

Those few costs look pretty significant to me.

Perhaps you should try Arizona for a while, instead of New York. Plenty of the Spanish-speakers in New York are Puerto Rican, and therefore citizens; and also most (not "many", or at least most I encountered in the late 1990s) are bilingual.

You forget, I lived in NYC for a few years myself. There is a world of difference between the Puerto Rican neighborhood where I lived in Brooklyn, and Tucson, which is essentially a border town (60 miles from Mexico).
QUOTE
"They" have been doing that since the beginning of immigration to this country. Williamsburg Brooklyn is a cluster of Hasidic Jews who stick to "their own kind". Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn is a cluster of Russian immigrants who stick to "their own kind". Astoria, Queens is a cluser of Greek immigrants who stick to "their own kind". And Westchester is a cluster of affluent wealthy white people who stick to "their own kind". How dare they!

And tell me, how many Italians live in Little Italy now? How many Chinese live in Chinatowns? How many Jews live in Williamsburg? The majority -- that is, "most of" -- do not. Why? Because they've assimilated into the majority culture. They retain their identities, they speak ancestral languages at home, but they do not demand public school educations in Italian or Yiddish, and never have.

QUOTE
Those same Spanish speaking immigrants you deride also enlist to go to Iraq, with the hopes that, if they get killed, their family will get green cards. They are patriots. Immigration happens to be the sincerest form of flattery. The immigrants would rather uproot their entire families, leaving their heritage behind, and live here because they think our country is BETTER than theirs. Who cares if they want to speak Spanish?

Tell me, how many non-English-speaking immigrants are in the US armed services? I eagerly await your statistics.

I have never "derided" Mexicans or those whose first language is Spanish, merely those who refuse to learn English and demand special treatment. Again, you twist my words to suit your prejudices.

QUOTE
I agree with you there, but the desire of fundamentalists to enact Sharia law in a country whose freedoms would be entirely undermined by such an act is a far cry from someone requesting a ballot to also be printed in Spanish. One is a reasonable request, the other is an attack on the very freedoms that allow a functional society. I'm sure you can tell the difference.

Each is a case of immigrants wishing to bring their own country with them, rather than become part of the one they have moved to. I'm sure you can see the similarity.

QUOTE
That may be what Jihadists in Londonistan wish, but again, that is not what Mexican immigrants are pursuing. They are not inisting upon total legal autonomy due to their religious faith. They are not making unconstitutional demands.

A difference in degree only.

QUOTE
Quite frankly your language is xenophobic. You are referring to Mexican immigrants as invaders. You might as well be calling them cockroaches.

Actually, you are the one demonstrating prejudices, not me. You equate expecting current immigrants who move to the United States to put forth the effort every past immigrant group has put forth -- learning the language and customs of the majority culture -- with racism. You also claim that I have "derided" Mexican immigrants. I take no issue whatsoever with immigrants of any nationality, as long as they show the effort to join the country, not simply take up space in it.
Pataphysician
There is no "American Culture" to defend. We're not the same as France or Germany or Poland in that way. "American Culture" has always been whatever happened to evolve from recent circumstances. The only thing that defines "America" is the Constitution, and if 100 years from now everyone reads it in Spanish (or Chinese or Farsi), so be it.
Hemingway's Hangover
Ahh, I adore the immigration debate. The cross-cultural semantics are quite interesting -- here in the US, "immigrant" seems to almost exclusively stand for "Mexican", while in Europe it seems code for "Muslim".

I especially love the rhetoric of educational decline, as if the presence of the children of immigrants in our schools is somehow the cause of intellectual failure in the U.S. Yes, exactly right: our kids don't know the five freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment because of those damn Mexicans! Johnny can't read or spell because of immigration! Yup, you sure pegged that problem. You've obviously spent a lot of time in classrooms
across the country.

I also enjoy the "English-only" debate. A huge percentage of the "native-born" people in the country can't read or write English; earlier this year the Feds measured adult illiteracy as approaching 20%! Not only are we discouraging multi-lingualism in public education (which increases "native tongue" literacy as well as emphasizes critical thinking skills), we are steadily becoming less intelligent and expressive as a nation.

George Bush is not "the" problem, however comforting that idea; he is nothing more than a symptom of our much larger cultural dysfunction.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(traineraz @ May 29 2007, 03:00 PM) *

You also claim that I have "derided" Mexican immigrants.


Do you really wish to be on record arguing that the term "invader" is not a derogatory one?

QUOTE
"Many" means "a significant number". "Most of" means "the majority". Please do not twist my words to suit your prejudices. Thanks.


If the majority of Mexican immigrants are assimilating, then what's the problem? Maybe you mean something other than what you have said, but it appears your conclusion is that Mexican immigrants generally do not assimilate well and are making unreasonable demands which are threatening our society. They are "invaders", as you say. But I'm the one being prejuidicial, as you say.

QUOTE
Perhaps you should try Arizona for a while, instead of New York. Plenty of the Spanish-speakers in New York are Puerto Rican


And Dominican, Cuban, Guyanese, Venezuelan and Mexican. Which immigrants should we single out as the bad ones? I say we single out the Puerto Ricans. They're always waving their flags, having their Puerto Rican day parade, putting their flags on their cars and bikes and clothes, singing Puerto Rican songs and listening to that god-awful Raggaeton music which is like nails on a chalkboard to my ears. They're bad assimilators, and therefore are invaders.

QUOTE
Tell me, how many non-English-speaking immigrants are in the US armed services? I eagerly await your statistics.


9.5% of actively enlisted forces are Hispanic, while 17.5% of the front lines are Hispanic (a discrepancy that is damning in and of itself). I didn't realize we were all of a sudden only speaking of non-English-speaking immigrants, however, and I doubt many, if any armed services members do not speak English and refuse to learn it. FWIW the only hispanics I've met who do not speak English are older immigrants, who have children who are fluent in English and translate for their parents. Perhaps it's a huge problem in Tucson, but I haven't heard of any immigrant children refusing to learn English, or parents of immigrant children forbidding their children to learn English and insisting on public schools that are taught only in Spanish. I eagerly await your statistics about the tremendous threat posed by this "significant number" of invaders who refuse to learn English.


QUOTE
QUOTE
Quite frankly your language is xenophobic. You are referring to Mexican immigrants as invaders. You might as well be calling them cockroaches.

Actually, you are the one demonstrating prejudices, not me. You equate expecting current immigrants who move to the United States to put forth the effort every past immigrant group has put forth -- learning the language and customs of the majority culture -- with racism.


I don't think you're racist, never said you were. I said the language you were using was xenophobic. Mexicans who don't assimilate are invaders, according to you, and you seem rather threatened by any of these invaders who might not learn English. The fact of the matter is, if they don't learn English, it's their loss, not yours. They may be marginalizing themselves by not learning the language, but that hardly makes them a threatening "invader". Are they telling you you're not allowed to have ballots or schools in English?

I've been to several bilingual countries in Europe, where signs and books and all sorts of information are printed in multiple languages, in case someone there doesn't happen to speak the native language, and it doesn't appear to ruffle anyone's feathers, even though those multi-lingual signs are paid for with taxpayer dollars. In Switzerland, the Western side speaks French, the Eastern side speaks German, and another portion of the country speaks some odd language called Romish. Plenty in Switzerland cannot speak all of the 4 official languages of that country, and yet the country is highly functional, even though the cultural differences between Geneva and Zurich are tremendous. Which portion of the Swiss population should we declare a problem, since they refuse to learn all 4 official Swiss languages? Or is that OK because they're all natives, and not learning the official languages is only an offense if the person is from another part of the map?
absinthist
Lest we forget about those Swiss living high above in the mountains who speak a language, or better call it a dialect, that is neither in the vein of German nor French and is quite weird if you hear it for the very first time.
Donnie Darko
Italian?

Just kidding. It's called Romish, right?
absinthist
AFAIK Rhaeto-Romansh (under that name we know it in Poland) is quite understandable, whereas this thing spoken by very few people nowadays sounds really strange.

My uncle was speaking once with them and while his stay in Poland has spoken using that dialect and it is even difficult to be repeated (btw, I am usually speaking German with my uncle, he is from Solothurn).
traineraz
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ May 29 2007, 01:24 PM) *

QUOTE(traineraz @ May 29 2007, 03:00 PM) *

You also claim that I have "derided" Mexican immigrants.


Do you really wish to be on record arguing that the term "invader" is not a derogatory one?

Not at all. I was discussing immigrants in general, and you decided I was "deriding Mexicans".

Let's be honest. When I say "immigrant", you translate that as "illegal border crosser", just as you translate "many" as "most of". You desire me to fit a convenient ideological category, and will change or "interpret" what I say to let your prejudices about me remain unchallenged.

If you wish to discuss illegal border crossers, we can do that. If you wish to discuss immigrants who do not wish to assimilate into the country they've freely chosen, we can do that. However, they are different discussions.
Donnie Darko
OK, so it's only the immigrants who refuse to assimilate (i.e. those who refuse to learn English, want Spanish ballots and Spanish public school classes) that are the "invaders". It's purely coincidental that they are Mexican.

QUOTE
When I say "immigrant", you translate that as "illegal border crosser"


Do I? Where did I do that? I don't recall saying anything like that, ever. For me the term "immigrant" is all inclusive, and does not distinguish between whether they are here legally or illegally, nor should it, since neither you nor I have any real way to dinstinguish a legal immigrant from an illegal one. An immigrant is someone who leaves their country to come live in ours, period.

QUOTE
just as you translate "many" as "most of"


How many is many? You say it is a "significant number". If most of them assimilate, then you have no reason to have a problem. Either most of them do assimilate, or most of them do not assimilate. Which is it? You haven't even given a number, you've just said "many" and "a substantial number of", which certainly sounds like quite a bit more than "a minority of". Many was your choice of words, and I'm just taking you at your word. So how many is it?

QUOTE
If you wish to discuss immigrants who do not wish to assimilate into the country they've freely chosen, we can do that.


Assimilation is over-rated. I don't care if immigrants assimilate, as long as they obey the laws of the land, which "many" of them do. Assimilation has nothing to do with any law, it's something that native peoples impose upon "others" because the native peoples think their way is better, which is beyond my comprehension.
traineraz
QUOTE
OK, so it's only the immigrants who refuse to assimilate (i.e. those who refuse to learn English, want Spanish ballots and Spanish public school classes) that are the "invaders". It's purely coincidental that they are Mexican.

Actually, I don't believe they are all Mexican. Again, you brought up Mexicans. "Spanish-speaker" does not mean "Mexican" -- at least not for me.

In the southwest, Spanish-speakers are indeed mostly Mexican; not too many Cubans out that way. In Florida, I imagine it may be a different story. And in New York, there's quite a mix of Spanish-speaking immigrants.

And yes, it's (in my definition) those who refuse to assimilate who are "invaders", as I've already stated. Those who wish to set up their own country, just like home, in the borders of someone else's country. Those who do not wish to join their new country, but replicate their old.

You know, the way Europeans once invaded the Americas! Or do you consider that immigration?
QUOTE
Assimilation is over-rated. I don't care if immigrants assimilate, as long as they obey the laws of the land, which "many" of them do.

I think that's a big part of the issue; much of assimilation is adopting and obeying the laws (and norms) of one's adopted country. Some immigrants in Europe are pushing for the "right" to enforce imported laws of their own choosing, which means ignoring the laws of the countries to which they've relocated. They are refusing to assimilate.

Imagine if I were to emigrate to Saudi Arabia, and demand the right to drink alcohol! What if I'm a Catholic; drinking wine is part of my religion! (I'm not, but you get the point.) How dare they infringe upon my religious expression!

Oh, wait. I'd be the one at fault, asking Saudi Arabia to change its laws to suit me.
Pataphysician
QUOTE(traineraz @ May 29 2007, 04:29 PM) *


Imagine if I were to emigrate to Saudi Arabia, and demand the right to drink alcohol! What if I'm a Catholic; drinking wine is part of my religion! (I'm not, but you get the point.) How dare they infringe upon my religious expression!

Oh, wait. I'd be the one at fault, asking Saudi Arabia to change its laws to suit me.



Right, now you're catching on: the U.S. has a better system. America is all about freedom to live as you please and not about language, culture and assimilation.
absinthist

QUOTE
What if I'm a Catholic; drinking wine is part of my religion! (I'm not, but you get the point.)


Drinking wine is over-rated, during every Catholic celebration, we drink Spiritus Sancti Dilutus (I am, so you shall get the point).
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Pataphysician @ May 29 2007, 08:53 PM) *

QUOTE(traineraz @ May 29 2007, 04:29 PM) *


Imagine if I were to emigrate to Saudi Arabia, and demand the right to drink alcohol! What if I'm a Catholic; drinking wine is part of my religion! (I'm not, but you get the point.) How dare they infringe upon my religious expression!

Oh, wait. I'd be the one at fault, asking Saudi Arabia to change its laws to suit me.



Right, now you're catching on: the U.S. has a better system. America is all about freedom to live as you please and not about language, culture and assimilation.



I can't put it any better than that, nor can anyone else. Except it's worth pointing out that "assimilation" is a term frequently employed by the Borg on Star Trek.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(absinthist @ May 30 2007, 06:52 AM) *

QUOTE
What if I'm a Catholic; drinking wine is part of my religion! (I'm not, but you get the point.)


Drinking wine is over-rated, during every Catholic celebration, we drink Spiritus Sancti Dilutus (I am, so you shall get the point).


Actually, according to Catholic doctrine, it's blood, not wine, and I'm sure Saudi Arabia has no problem with people drinking blood.
Absinthesizer
Mother-in-law: "All immigrants should be required to learn English."
Mrs. Absinthesizer: "But your mother lived in the United States for 50 years and never learned English." (She came from Campo Basso in 1921, and settled in the Italian community in Louisville, Colorado.)
Mother-in-law: "That's different."
absinthist


QUOTE
Actually, according to Catholic doctrine, it's blood, not wine, and I'm sure Saudi Arabia has no problem with people drinking blood.


It is just a matter of symbolism, and moreover, interpretation: for instance during Lent only fish with tansy leaves should be eaten, just during Christmas Eve some people drink wine with their 12 dishes, some do not drink at all (sinners harhar.gif ), others prefer Polish vodka what helps when time for carol-singing comes tongue.gif . Not to mention the fact, very few families actually serve 12 dishes .

Saudi Arabia probablement has no problems at all ($$$$).
traineraz
QUOTE(Pataphysician @ May 29 2007, 04:53 PM) *

Right, now you're catching on: the U.S. has a better system. America is all about freedom to live as you please and not about language, culture and assimilation.

What have you been smoking, and where can I get some?
Pataphysician
Where? In America, Land of the Free!!

But seriously, I'm talking about America in theory not practice. After all, I like many other people have a theory.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(traineraz @ May 30 2007, 02:03 PM) *

QUOTE(Pataphysician @ May 29 2007, 04:53 PM) *

Right, now you're catching on: the U.S. has a better system. America is all about freedom to live as you please and not about language, culture and assimilation.

What have you been smoking, and where can I get some?


Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man".

Jaded Prole
I don't know that America is any freer than much or Europe but there is an advantage to not really having a national culture or being a homogenous population. We ARE freer as individuals to be who we want to be in that we are not bound by rigid cultural expectations. Most folks do not take full advantage of this either out of fear, insecurity, or because they have an overpowering need for the approval of others within a subcultural framework. Beyond that, the vast majority of us are slaves to our employers.





Resistance is not futile.
Donnie Darko
The upside is that legally on paper, our constitution affords us with liberties that are not legally mandated in most other nations. Most other nations do not constitutionally mandate separation between church and state, and do not expressly allow all freedom of expression. Of course in reality, our military has paid chaplains, we give tax dollars to "faith based initiatives", and our information and entertainment sources are coerced into giving up freedom of expression by the FCC and MPAA, all in the name of "public decency" and "respecting faith", which are just euphemisms for attempts to please those hyper-sensitive solipsistic "moral" police.

America should concern itself with being more like America, before it concerns itself with what language people are speaking.
Provenance
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ May 30 2007, 02:39 PM) *

America should concern itself with being more like America

I rather like that comment.
Jaded Prole
I'll drink to that!




"America never was America to me" -- Langston Hughes
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