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Kirk
I think Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are liberals, I think the people who voted for them are too.
I think they are either careless, greedy, overly optimistic, or fools.
A conservative believes in the constitution, the sanctity of the home, the pursuit of happiness and the status quo.
I think the people parading around as conservatives today are hawks and sheep, liberal sheep.
Todays so called liberals seem to be the ones consistently defending basic values and the rule of law.
I think liberals torture people, blow up innocent citizens, invade sovereign countries and twist or ignore the laws in any way that suits them, while conservatives generally mind their own business and try to do better, for themselves and the world around them.
Suit yourself, as for me, I think I'm dead center, if you remember, the whole thing started out as a scale, with degrees to the left and right.
Provenance
It's not a right-left line but a circle where the far "left" and "right" meet in an orgy of violence while the centrists have a few drinks and try to stay as far from the crazies as possible.
Donnie Darko
There's Liberal, there's Conservative, and then there's just plain old willful ignorance.

After Mr. Bush rejected the Iraq Study Group's recommendation that we set 2008 as a target date for withdrawing troops, he said this:
"“One way to assure failure is just to quit, is not to adjust, and say it’s just not worth it,” he added. “If we were to fail, that failed policy will come to hurt generations of Americans in the future.”

All I can say is he's a proven expert on assuring failure.
jacal01
Conservatives seek to protect the status quo, or more correctly, the order of private privileges, usually by propagating icons, images, and other perceived values for popular consumption. Liberals want real changes for the better, usually for public benefit.

However, conservatives can invoke destruction of public trust institutions, civil values and common quality of life in their attempts to preserve or enrich the power and economic privilege. And liberals can attempt to protect those institutions and community processes representing hard won liberties and national resources, in an attempt to maintain the civil progress already engendered. As Prol states, if it’s not progression, it’s generally regression, at least for the masses.
Lord Stanley
I thought that the term Conservative with respect to the Republican party once referred to the conservative application of government. Small government looking out for the essentials of running the country - collecting taxes, national defence, building roads etc. When the Moral Majority took over the party, the term Conservative suddenly came to represent the conservative, Puritan views of that constituency. Unfortunately, promoting those conservative values required a liberal application of government to oversee everything from banning gay marriage to babysitting Terri Schiavo.

On the flipside, the Libertarians who have always believed that government should have limited powers in such matters now seem to be leaning towards the Democrats.
frusty.gif
justabob
QUOTE(Kirk @ Dec 7 2006, 09:10 AM) *

I think Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are liberals, I think the people who voted for them are too.
I think they are either careless, greedy, overly optimistic, or fools.


Greed the most basic of human emotions and of course why trickle down economics does not work
Donnie Darko
Arguing over semantics is pointless. It doesn't matter what Conservatives SHOULD be doing. What matters is what they ARE doing. They're calling themselves Conservatives, so that's what they are. It doesn't matter if they don't fit the Barry Goldwater definition of the term because Conservativism has (de)evolved. And it had better change again really fast, otherwise they've already pre-lost the White House for '08.

Still don't believe the Conservative agenda is stupid? Lets take one of their brilliant policies, the Iraq war, and look at just how wrong (and deaf) they were. Here are some quotes from people who were ALL far wiser than the fools who brought us that Conservative policy triumph:

--Former President George H. W. Bush and Brent Scowcroft, explaining in 1998 why they didn’t go on to Baghdad in 1991: “Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land.”

--Representative Ike Skelton, September 2002: “I have no doubt that our military would decisively defeat Iraq’s forces and remove Saddam. But like the proverbial dog chasing the car down the road, we must consider what we would do after we caught it.”

--Al Gore, September 2002: “I am deeply concerned that the course of action that we are presently embarking upon with respect to Iraq has the potential to seriously damage our ability to win the war against terrorism and to weaken our ability to lead the world in this new century.”

--Barack Obama, September 2002: “I don’t oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.”

--Representative John Spratt, October 2002: “The outcome after the conflict is actually going to be the hardest part, and it is far less certain.”

--Representative Nancy Pelosi, now the House speaker-elect, October 2002: “When we go in, the occupation, which is now being called the liberation, could be interminable and the amount of money it costs could be unlimited.”

--Senator Russ Feingold, October 2002: “I am increasingly troubled by the seemingly shifting justifications for an invasion at this time. ... When the administration moves back and forth from one argument to another, I think it undercuts the credibility of the case and the belief in its urgency. I believe that this practice of shifting justifications has much to do with the troubling phenomenon of many Americans questioning the administration’s motives.”

--Howard Dean, then a candidate for president and now the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, February 2003: “I firmly believe that the president is focusing our diplomats, our military, our intelligence agencies, and even our people on the wrong war, at the wrong time. ... Iraq is a divided country, with Sunni, Shia and Kurdish factions that share both bitter rivalries and access to large quantities of arms.”
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(justabob @ Dec 8 2006, 03:09 AM) *

Greed the most basic of human emotions and of course why trickle down economics does not work


Oh, but you're wrong. The New York Times just reported that, for the first time in several years wages are increasing. Here's an example of the watershed gains that happen when that money finally trickles down:

QUOTE
That means even lower-wage workers like Mercedes Herrera, an immigrant from Mexico who cleans at San Felipe Plaza, a high-rise office building in Houston, are enjoying more leverage with their employers. Last month, Ms. Herrera’s union, the Service Employees International Union, settled a monthlong strike and secured raises of more than $2 an hour over the next two years for some 5,300 janitors in Houston.

The pay of Ms. Herrera, a 37-year-old mother of four, will increase to $6.25 an hour on Jan. 1, from $5.65 now. “It’s going to be a big difference in my personal finances,” she said, speaking through a translator. With the extra money, she said, she hoped she would no longer have to ask for food from churches.


Maybe if we cut the taxes of the wealthy to 10%, Ms. Herrera might even be able to buy Christmas (not Xmas) presents!
jacal01
QUOTE(justabob @ Dec 8 2006, 01:09 AM) *
Greed the most basic of human emotions and of course why trickle down economics does not work

I think greed is a learned reaction whereby the more wealth you accumulate, the more you want. Sorta like an addition.

Greed begets greed.
Donnie Darko
You mean like 2+2?

Sorry, just poking fun at the spelling error.

Let me make clear that I have no problem with wealth. Obtuse wealth of the kind that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet possess will do more good for humanity than you can possibly comprehend. I would never attack them for being greedy, because they have also willingly distributed a significant portion of what they earned through hard work and fortune to causes that might benefit ALL people, not just wealthy people. They could have gold leaf toilet paper for all I care, their generosity is monumentous and that sort of generosity deserves tax breaks.

What I do have a problem with is profusely wealthy people and businesses who can afford to have a team of accountants find every last loophole to avoid taxes, and then have the nerve to lobby the government for a tax cut, when those people were perfectly rich and productive paying the tax rates they paid under Clinton. Ultimately though I don't blame the rich people for that as much as I blame the rich politicians who sell the legislative process to the highest bidder.
jacal01
Urps. Can you tell I daydreamed through much of my catechism classes?

On the plus side tho, I won $10 in the lightning round of the spelling bee at work here yesterday. The things management will do to get us to pay attention to their presentations.

Good point on philanthropists, tho. Paternalism works if it wasn’t considered so falkland archaic. It’s mostly about shareholder profit and net worth these days, and the end justifies the means. Fair play is for the prey.
Donnie Darko
In order to inject a moment of balance into this thread, let me tell you the three things I despise about Liberalism today. No, this isn't Devil's Advocate, I'm serious.

#1: The notion that education standards need to be lowered for minorities-- It seems to be a popular notion among the academic Left that the way to bring minorities up to the education standards of their Caucasian counterparts is to water down the subject matter, by either presenting it as "cool" or "easy" or even teaching at a lower grade level or making tests easier. This is condescending and downright insulting. It's better to be honest to all children about the effort required to achieve things. Setting the bar low makes them feel stupid and inferior, and to make matters worse, keeps them that way.

#2: The idea that we should respect all differing cultures and their traditions equally as if they were all on a level playing field. I'm sorry, but Clitoral mutilation is still a common practice in parts of Africa, and the non-interference advocated by some on the Left in the name of "preserving cultural heritage" would keep those barbaric tribes and their "cultural traditions" intact. The fact is that it's a "cultural tradition" in many societies to oppress women and treat them only slightly better than slaves, and that should be fought aggressively at every opportunity. Another blatant double standard is how we allow Native Americans to use Peyote because it's part of their religious rituals, and in the past allowed Quakers to get out of the draft. One's personal beliefs should not exempt them from ANY law in this country or give them any privileged status.

#3: The allowance of frivolous lawsuits-- Everyone can agree that lawyers serve a purpose, and that if someone is injured by a grossly negligent company, that person should be compensated a reasonable sum. Sadly we have gotten into the habit of suing over minor ACCIDENTS, not gross negligence, and the left always seems to run to the defense of the greedy lawyers who exploit clients for financial gain.

I thought it would be worthwhile to point out that Liberalism isn't all gumdrops and rainbows either, and that there is ample capacity for bad ideas on the Left just as there is on the Right.
jacal01
Yeah, but excesses on the left doesn't seem near as offensive as excesses on the right, clitoral mutilations notwithstanding.
Donnie Darko
Here's one more thing for which those on the left deserve a crotch punch. While the "War on Christmas" is largely a fabricated Conservative rallying cry, there do happen to be some over-politically correct hyper-sensitive milktoasts that think calling Christmas Christmas is somehow offensive. The notion that people should self-censor themselves to say Happy Holidays is ridiculous. Does every other follower of an alternative winter Holiday have such delicate fragile fucking sensibilities that the mere mention of the word "Christmas" will shatter their faith? The most popular holiday celebrated in the Western Hemisphere on December 25th happens to be called Christmas, and the vast majority of the people who celebrate it aren't even doing so for religious reasons, but because they like presents, cookies and family (I'm an athiest and I celebrate Christmas). Some department store owners in the US have realized that putting up Menorahs means they might get more Jewish customers spending their money there, but that isn't a decision out of "respect", it's a shrewd business decision.

So how silly is this?
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/10/airport.c...s.ap/index.html

Would any of you Christians here sue the Tel-Aviv airport because they didn't put up a Christmas tree? Obviously the Seattle airport's reaction of taking down the tree was even more retarded than the lawsuit demanding a Menorah, but this whole nitpicky crap over holiday displays is, well, nitpicky crap.
grey boy
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Dec 11 2006, 08:21 AM) *

and the vast majority of the people who celebrate it aren't even doing so for religious reasons, but because they like presents, cookies and family

And eggnog, with a good dose of brandy.

Not only does eggnog kick ass,
it has a great name too.
Donnie Darko
Yes, the eggnog loaded with Brandy part is especially important, as that is what makes the family part of Christmas tolerable.
Jaded Prole
I prefer it with a liberal dose of rum plus freshly grated nutmeg.
MrsAbsomphe
According to Alton Brown on Good Eats, the booze of choice for eggnog is bourbon.

I just can't get past the raw eggs.

---Tish looking-up.gif
Provenance
Can't we all just get along by agreeing to use brandy, rum and bourbon in eggnog?
Jaded Prole
Sounds good to me.
Steyr850
QUOTE(MrsAbsomphe @ Dec 11 2006, 01:37 PM) *

I just can't get past the raw eggs.

---Tish looking-up.gif

Didn't you catch the slight cooking method near the end? I'm gonna give a try.
Provenance
After adding brandy, rum and bourbon, you will be completely cooked.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Provenance @ Dec 11 2006, 01:52 PM) *

Can't we all just get along by agreeing to use brandy, rum and bourbon in eggnog?


Flip-flopper.
Provenance
Unfortunate but true. However, it is progress when a thread about politics evolves into a discussion about booze.
Jaded Prole
True enough.
It is also a charactaristic of liberalism to "flip flop" due to the liberals have of not being ideologically attached to anything and constantly re-examining issues. Not a bad thing.
Selmac
Amen
Donnie Darko
Science happens to be the flip-floppiest of all professions. That's why I like it. Something which has a certain amount of evidence to support it is accepted as probable until evidence arises suggesting something else is more probable.

That's neither Liberal nor Conservative. That's just smart.
Absomphe
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Dec 12 2006, 04:11 PM) *


That's neither Liberal nor Conservative.


I believe Mann Coulter would refer to that as having the I.Q. of a toaster.
Jaded Prole
She should know about that!
Donnie Darko
Yeah, boy does she know a lot:
Ann Coulter Gets PWNED!
sixela
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Dec 13 2006, 03:42 AM) *

Yeah, boy does she know a lot:
Ann Coulter Gets PWNED!


But I'm sure she thinks she's right (see above evill.gif ).

Absomphe
She must have been referring to those 10,000, or so, volunteers that the Canadian government drafted to help out over there, eh?

Yup, the I.Q. of a toaster, alright.
sixela
QUOTE(Absomphe @ Dec 13 2006, 03:49 PM) *

Yup, the I.Q. of a toaster, alright.


Number Six says: "Toasters these days can be very intelligent; don't insult them by comparing them to Ann Coulter, because the more intelligent ones are also extremely bad tempered (and have nukes)".
Donnie Darko
My two favourite Ann Coulter quotes:

#1: "Joe McCarthy was a great American patriot" (she said it on the O'Reilly factor and even O'Reilly told her she was taking it too far!).


And let us not forget this gentle Jesus gem of compassionate conservativism:

#2 "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity"
Absomphe
Maybe Mann's just confusing shimself with a Spanish Conquistador, when (s)he's really just the Mann of LaMann-cha.
bob_chong
Y'all done sucking each others' dicks yet?
Donnie Darko
Absomphe is still working on Ann's.
jacal01
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Dec 13 2006, 08:21 AM) *
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity"

And sleep with their wives. To great lamenting and gnashing of teeth.
Jaded Prole
Watch out for the teeth!
Absomphe
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Dec 13 2006, 09:29 AM) *

Absomphe is still working on Ann's.


It's so big, and swinging, it's really tough to get a good grip on it.
Steyr850
Especially with dentures.
Absomphe
Slurp...I mean slipperier without them.
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