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The Standard Deviant
Rest in peace.
Jaded Prole
France has seen worse. Unlike the US, the Pesident is not all powerful. Proportional representation means they have to build alliances in a parliament of many parties which has a great deal of power and, unlike our congress, doesn't lay down easily. What is considered conservative in France is probably still to the left of most US Democrats.
absinthist
France died when the King and Freedom have been guillotined the same day. sarko or sego is the same malicious way of ruining the country further.
"Mankind perishes due to the general voting power" - de Goncourt brothers.

A bas republique! A bas democratie! Vive le roi!
Jaded Prole
Bah!

Off with their heads!

Vive le Commune de París!
sixela
La Commune.
absinthist
QUOTE(Jaded Prol @ May 6 2007, 12:30 PM) *

Bah!

Off with their heads!

Vive le Commune de París!


If you guillotine freedom, you won't have your absinthe or any other absinthe legalized, have not you thought about it, Prolly? harhar.gif

Mieux vaut etre mort que rouge - smash the reds!
Jaded Prole
It was the monarchy that was guillotened in France, Not "freedom." While the reign of terror that followed was no picnic, there was absinthe. The Commune of Paris was an attempt at freedom and popular autonomy in which absinthe no doubt flowed.
absinthist
Q: So why Pierre Ordinaire made absinthe for the very first time in Switzerland NOT in France?
A: Because he was fleeing the guillotine razor.
Most absinthe drinkers were monarchists (Lautrec, Degas, Renoir, Cezanne (more beerhead I know, yet had nothing against green fairy) Durand-Ruel, de Goncourt bros etc), moreover many absinthes later on were favoured by monarchs (in Spain or in Portugal, not counting Russia) and by other future right-wing leaders (like Caudillo Franco who had never banned absenta in Spain but could do this easily, whilst absinthe was banned in all the RED Europe (including Poland as well).
Jaded Prole
I don't know why you think most of the folks you cited were monarchists. The French monarhcy was long gone by the Belle Epoch. Even Napolean III was known to be an oppressive buffoon. Life for most people under the monarchy was short, brutal and very poor. Many period writers and artists like Oscar Wilde, Willam Morris, Walter Crane and a few others were socialists. Absinthe however, was understandibly popular among people of all classes.

abs-cheers.gif
absinthist
In their writings and opinions they have been expressing pro-monarchy feeling, however there were others fellow absintheurs and absinthists who were on the left side (like Picasso or Hemingway, or even van Gogh (I would call him a Christian socialist) who I really respect not for their political views but the artistry).
Monarchy might have been gone but remained in their hearts if absinthe-soaked.
And so it shall be if still is the choice of elitists, back at You abs-cheers.gif
Jaded Prole
There are epicureans of all persuasions but they are not necessarily elitists.




<------------------------ connoisseur would be more correct.
speedle
Indeed™


Marc
I would be curious to hear what image you have of Sego & Sarko from US and UK.
sixela
QUOTE(absinthist @ May 6 2007, 09:26 PM) *

sarko or sego is the same malicious way of ruining the country further.


There is certainly more than one way to ruin anything, just as sinister and clueless are two different qualities wink.gif.

G&C
Just ask the "Decider Guy".
traineraz
OK, so I read a couple of articles about Sarkozy.

Where's the disaster? From everything I'm reading -- including the Wikipedia listing -- he seems moderate by US standards.

And Sego sounds an awful lot like Bush . . . In the superficial things, like bumbling and commenting inappropriately: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/pr...&R=11249229
The Standard Deviant
It isn't the US, so whether or not he seems moderate by US standards is irrelevant. If you had to sum up Sarkozy in one word, it would probably be 'Thatcher'.
Marc
What about Blair?

Chirac was a "couille molle", as is Blair, now we need some changes, Sego or Sarko, I don't care, but we needed some fucking changes, and Sarko has bollocks, he says what he thinks, he doesn't care if it hurts the poor "gauche caviar", the "bobos" as we call them, things had to be said and had to be done, end of story.
Donnie Darko
True. 20% unemployment has to be dealt with somehow, I don't care if it's a Conservative or Liberal that does it. As long as they don't invade other countries, and make sure and do as much or more for the underclasses as they do for the social elite, then I'm fine with whoever runs France. As long as they keep shipping quality cheese and absinthe to the US, I'm happy.

I think the much more interesting political topic is the ouster of Turkey's Islamic candidate for President. A friend of mine is Turkish, and his father was in the military the last time the military overthrew the government for trying to legisilate religion. I would just like to say I am proud of the Turks and how they are standing up to Islamic power interests and maintaining their secular government.
rogue_designer
As to what impressions we have of Sego and Sarko in the US.

For my own part I see Sego much the way I see most liberal democrats - larger government involvement, and likely more spending, but as a result more emphasis on national issues, social issues and a higher quality of life for a larger percentage of the population. I realize that may not be the reality, either re: sego or the left in the US. But it is, nontheless, my impression, and gut hope.

Sarko I see as a classic conservative. Bring more business, and eventually the poor will be better able to help themselves via employment, etc. But short term he'll be divisive, and maybe even detrimental to the social stability of the coutry. His time was 10 years ago. Tough love now will be seen as a slap in the face of people who are already struggling. I hope long term he proves to be the right choice. But I am wary.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(rogue_designer @ May 7 2007, 04:38 PM) *

Sarko I see as a classic conservative. Bring more business, and eventually the poor will be better able to help themselves via employment, etc.


In France's case I see nothing wrong with that. I would be opposed to it in the US, as we already have too much of that and not enough of the French style social safety nets. But France would do quite well if they were to adopt a more competetive business model than their current system of most employees in most jobs being practically tenured. Unfortunately I doubt much of the French population will go along with it, even though in the long term it might provide more job opportunities...
Artemis
QUOTE
not enough of the French style social safety nets


Plenty of hammocks, though.
The Standard Deviant
I had written a longer post which somehow I managed to lose. Some points:
•It would be a tragedy if France Americanised, which has been resisted so far.
•In the UK people live to work, they don't work in order to live as is the case in France.
•The French pay a lot for public services (healthcare, transport etc. . .) and get a well run service back in return.

These are some of the good things about France which are at risk.

Just to set the record straight, the unemployment rate in France is 9.1%, not 20%. Compared to US: 4.4% and UK: 5.4%. Being employed doesn't necessarily make you better off than someone on state benefits. Although unemployment is higher in France than in the US, the population living below the poverty line in France is lower: 6.5%, whereas in the US it is 11.4%.
pierreverte
please elaborate as i can't see how any of those things are at any real risk with sarko...
Zman
I love listening to the lefties whine when they lose.
Absinthesizer
Yeah, it's been a while, hasn't it? harhar.gif
Marc
QUOTE(The Standard Deviant @ May 8 2007, 12:32 AM) *

Just to set the record straight, the unemployment rate in France is 9.1%, not 20%. Compared to US: 4.4% and UK: 5.4%. Being employed doesn't necessarily make you better off than someone on state benefits. Although unemployment is higher in France than in the US, the population living below the poverty line in France is lower: 6.5%, whereas in the US it is 11.4%.

There was a common point in both Sarko and Sego's programs (more pronounced in Sarko's though): too many people in France are pleased to live from state's aid, not a general thing though, the majority of unemployed have the will to work just to get a social life, but how can you have the will to work when you know that you will earn 1000€ working on the assembly line and 900€ by staying at home (or even more depending on the number of children) ?
That's a typical french problem, people working are undervalued. My mama has started to work when she was 16, to earn money for the family, she is now 53 and earns less than 1200€, you see the problem?
absinthist
QUOTE(rogue_designer @ May 7 2007, 12:38 PM) *


Sarko I see as a classic conservative.


" A conservative is the enemy of any radicalism, being it right or left-oriented. He is a patriot, but not a nationalist, he favours authority and sovereignty, yet despises despotism. He values freedom and hates anarchy, is religious but far from fanatism, sees the importance of economy, but is not materialistic, he thinks about country, not party, and cares uttermost for the defense and foreign politics."

Prince Janusz Radziwiłł (1880-1967)

I doubt if that definition depicts who Sarko really is.
Artemis
QUOTE
I love listening to the lefties whine when they lose.


biggrin.gif

Do they have any jackasses such as Alec Baldwin threatening to move to the U.S. cause they lost?
rogue_designer
QUOTE(absinthist @ May 8 2007, 05:24 AM) *

" A conservative is the enemy of any radicalism, being it right or left-oriented. He is a patriot, but not a nationalist, he favours authority and sovereignty, yet despises despotism. He values freedom and hates anarchy, is religious but far from fanatism, sees the importance of economy, but is not materialistic, he thinks about country, not party, and cares uttermost for the defense and foreign politics."

Prince Janusz Radziwi?? (1880-1967)

I doubt if that definition depicts who Sarko really is.


Hmm - I guess that's not what I think of when I think conservative government. Tho, I admit, I can't put my understanding of it into words at the moment.

I'll ponder a bit, and see if I can clarify.
absinthist
Then, what would be your definition? I am getting more curious abs-cheers.gif In a way, a conservative is a monarchist in-building, so Sarko does not count in that group and if you look closer at the history of France you would see that "The capitalists and the communists, well, they co-excist, and if you love your country you're be on their list."
Of course, in terms of American history, it is no suprise you have different associations, you might be thinking of Republicans as more conservative than Democrats in a sense of traditions so to say, still they do not count, either. I believe that the closest to the definition would be Dixiecrats but I am not sure if they are having any support in the States.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Zman @ May 7 2007, 10:59 PM) *

I love listening to the lefties whine when they lose.


Sarko doesn't even seem that right wing to me, certainly not by US standards. You don't hear him trying to legislate morality or ban abortion or refuse to fund stem cell research or acting like global warming isn't really a problem or suggesting that the country would be safer if everyone had a gun.

He sounds more like a Clinton Democrat. Reform public services but don't do away with them, and increase trade and competition.

QUOTE
Just to set the record straight, the unemployment rate in France is 9.1%, not 20%.


That's the overall unemployment rate, but...
"For at least five years, economic growth across most of the Continent has been far too feeble to create jobs that could lift have-nots into the mainstream. France's economy has grown an average 1.5% annually for the past four years and is set to grow only 1.2% this year. Unemployment is nearly 10%, and among those under 25 it is nearly 22%, about twice the U.S. rate. Youth joblessness runs over 50% in the suburbs that are home to many of France's more than 5 million first- and second-generation African and Arab immigrants."

That's according to Business Week Magazine. Unemployment IS a huge problem in France and in some areas exceeds 20% if you count immigrants and young people.

QUOTE
Although unemployment is higher in France than in the US, the population living below the poverty line in France is lower: 6.5%, whereas in the US it is 11.4%.


You make a good point here. Adding a lot of shitty low-wage jobs is not the answer. From what I can tell, however, Sarko's plan is not to build lots of Wal-Marts...
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(absinthist @ May 8 2007, 06:24 AM) *

QUOTE(rogue_designer @ May 7 2007, 12:38 PM) *


Sarko I see as a classic conservative.


" A conservative is the enemy of any radicalism, being it right or left-oriented. He is a patriot, but not a nationalist, he favours authority and sovereignty, yet despises despotism. He values freedom and hates anarchy, is religious but far from fanatism, sees the importance of economy, but is not materialistic, he thinks about country, not party, and cares uttermost for the defense and foreign politics."

Prince Janusz Radziwi?? (1880-1967)

I doubt if that definition depicts who Sarko really is.


That's the vaguest definition of "classic conservative" I've ever seen, and especially suspect given that the logical correllary to that statement would be that liberalism=despotism, which I disagree with (although Zman and Artemis probably would agree with). In this country conservatives are largely devotees of the ideology put forth by Leo Strauss. Even if they've never heard of him, it's he who laid the groundwork for the current definition of "conservative". It may be called "neo-conservativism", but it's the only brand of conservativism I've seen pushed on talk shows and by politicians, so it might as well just be called conservativism.

Sarko (hopefully) seems more like a devotee of John Rawls (as am I), though obviously he's pandering a bit to Bush at the moment saying he's "pro-America". I see nothing wrong with the French President being Pro-American, however.
Donnie Darko
One more point on Sarko. He was legitimately elected, so it appears he was preferred by the majority of the French voting populace, who are as left-leaning as most Democrats here, if not more so. And he won by a margin wider than any election since Charles DeGaulle. So it doesn't sound like it's "farewell France", it sounds like France wanted this.
Jaded Prole
I don't think the French people want to emulate The US Model.
Wild Bill Turkey
And he won twice, really. He had by far the highest percentage of the vote in the first election, but still not enough to have won the final. In the second campaign, he won a lot of new ground, in an election with a record-high voter turnout that should be the envy of the democratic world.
Kirk
If Al Gore waits until the last minute to throw his hat into the ring, he'll probably be our next president.
It's almost always fatal to come on too strong, too early.
absinthist
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ May 8 2007, 02:34 PM) *

QUOTE(absinthist @ May 8 2007, 06:24 AM) *

QUOTE(rogue_designer @ May 7 2007, 12:38 PM) *


Sarko I see as a classic conservative.


" A conservative is the enemy of any radicalism, being it right or left-oriented. He is a patriot, but not a nationalist, he favours authority and sovereignty, yet despises despotism. He values freedom and hates anarchy, is religious but far from fanatism, sees the importance of economy, but is not materialistic, he thinks about country, not party, and cares uttermost for the defense and foreign politics."

Prince Janusz Radziwi?? (1880-1967)

I doubt if that definition depicts who Sarko really is.


It may be called "neo-conservativism", but it's the only brand of conservativism I've seen pushed on talk shows and by politicians, so it might as well just be called conservativism.




Neo-cons as they are usually referred to have nothing to do with neither conservatism nor anything right-wing-oriented even if they are deluding you to think so.
They stem from purely Marxist-Trotskyist sentiments that result in global totalitarian democracy with a strong influence of the Zionist lobby. If you do not realize, they held the full responsibility for Iraq intervention and other wars on terror in the making.
The book by John Ehrman, "The Rise of Neoconservatism Intellectuals and Foreign Affairs, 1945-1994" is an excellent outlook on their strong connections with left-wing, liberalism and definitely despotic approach towards the U.S.
Marc
QUOTE(Wild Bill Turkey @ May 9 2007, 03:48 PM) *

a record-high voter turnout that should be the envy of the democratic world.

83.8% voters for the first tour.
84% for the second tour.
A great mobilization!
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(absinthist @ May 9 2007, 11:36 AM) *

Neo-cons as they are usually referred to have nothing to do with neither conservatism nor anything right-wing-oriented even if they are deluding you to think so.
They stem from purely Marxist-Trotskyist sentiments that result in global totalitarian democracy with a strong influence of the Zionist lobby. If you do not realize, they held the full responsibility for Iraq intervention and other wars on terror in the making.
The book by John Ehrman, "The Rise of Neoconservatism Intellectuals and Foreign Affairs, 1945-1994" is an excellent outlook on their strong connections with left-wing, liberalism and definitely despotic approach towards the U.S.


You are correct in all those points, but semantically, they're called "Conservative" here, even if that is technically the wrong label (one only has to look at the budget defecits for proof that they have no fiscal conservative inclinations whatsoever). They've hijacked and deep-sixed most of what Barry Goldwater style conservativism stood for, and have redefined conservativism. I still have yet to see any Republican candidate espouse much Goldwater style ideology, which was staunchly secular and probably more Libertarian than anything else.
absinthist
That is right. I think the problem with wrong definition is much more complicated.
Just like people associate neo-cons with ideology they do not belong, the same they call National Socialism as the extreme right which in fact is left-wing to the core and cannot understand that Liberalism is too broad so depending on the aspect it might be either leftist or rightist (then concerning free market economy); the same goes for Fascism which is neither left nor right but best defined as the Third Way taking all the best from both sides.
If only Sarko cut ties off from Chiracism and all the BUFFOONERY Jacques stood for, he should do just fine (bearing in mind he had already mentioned that both Poland and Hungary would partake in decision-making in Europe yes.gif), time shall tell if he talks and talks and promises and does nothing or takes direct action and brings France back on the right tracks, it is a long way for him to qualify as a conservative leader, though.
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