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Marc
Apparently an american HGer has gone co.
Marteau

"Marteau is Swiss-style. It has been distiled in the U.S. by an individual for private use, but now that the government has started to allow absinthe in the country legally, this individual has gone to one of his friends in Switzerland to have it distilled in a larger, more commercial facility than his house."

(Thank you LL for the link)
crosby
QUOTE(mthuilli @ Jul 19 2007, 01:11 AM) *

Apparently an american HGer has gone co.
Marteau

"Marteau is Swiss-style. It has been distiled in the U.S. by an individual for private use, but now that the government has started to allow absinthe in the country legally, this individual has gone to one of his friends in Switzerland to have it distilled in a larger, more commercial facility than his house."

(Thank you LL for the link)

Grate-H-sinthe™.
crosby
'Splains all the cock-sucking he's done since kicking his friends to the curb.
Oxygenee
I'm surprised that anyone would admit publicly to effectively having committed a felony in their own publicity release.
crosby
No, no, no. It’s all good, it wuz done under a full moon. That makes it all legit.

The Grate-H is a fucktard. Fucktards have their own reality.

Talk about bringing the hammer down.
The Standard Deviant
"For he's a jolly good felon, for he's a jolly good felon. . ."
Oxygenee
Operating a still without a license in the US is a felony. "Swapping" samples with other HGer's would compound the situation, because you're exchanging your output for value. Using the US Mail to make these swaps would add the possibiity of mail fraud charges. Serving HG, or allowing it to be served with a nod and a wink at any function for which you've in any way charged an admission fee would likewise exacerbate the situation.

There seems to be a widely held assumption here that all this can be ignored because:
a. this is a victimless crime
b. alcohol is being redistilled, not created from a mash, so it's only a "technical" violation.
c. the whole thing is too trivial for anyone in law enforcement to bother with.
d. the recent partial legalisation of absinthe in the US means that admissions of past HG activity can be made quite safely.

I'd strongly advise against making this assumption, and my guess is that many people who made similar assumptions in other fields are currently sitting in state and federal penitentiaries.

I live outside the US, am not a US citizen, and am not an HGer, so in a sense this isn't my problem. But it seems to me that in recent months all sense of discretion and confidentiality has been abandoned by some US-based HGers. Making it clear explicitly or implicity that you've broken any US law, no matter how trivial, on a public forum or blog is, in my opinion, extremely misguided, especially in the current socio-political climate. I think those who do so are placing both themselves and their friends in jeopardy.
Icarus
Yeah, but it makes the absinthe sound so badass.

Jaded Prole
I heard it's burnt™




QUOTE
. . .and am not an HGer,


Me neither.
traineraz
I do hope that whoever it might be has gotten rid of any equipment he may have had about the house. In some states, possession of equipment without a license is enough . . .
Provenance
QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Jul 19 2007, 06:09 AM) *

Making it clear explicitly or implicity that you've broken any US law, no matter how trivial, on a public forum or blog is, in my opinion, extremely misguided, especially in the current socio-political climate. I think those who do so are placing both themselves and their friends in jeopardy.

Moreover, by associating absinthe with criminal activity, the true (or untrue) confessions approach to marketing could taint all absinthe -- harming efforts to gain US acceptance of fully legal, taxed, regulatory compliant products.

In short, that is one of the damn-stupidest things I've seen.
Alice the absinthe eater
I really can't see a bottle of absinthe going for 35 bucks, but maybe that's just because it has been costing me so much to get it from euro-land.


what's shipping like from Canada to the states?
crosby
Wrong thread.
Alice the absinthe eater
really crosby? because I thought responding to the topic that was orgianlly posted was the correct thing to do in a thread.

I must have been mistaken




sixela
Did you know that the shift key wasn't only to make "I" look larger, but also to capitalise the start of sentences?
Alice the absinthe eater
Well yeah, but sometimes that's just way to much work Sixela.
I don't think you fully understand how lazy I am right now.
crosby
QUOTE(Alice the absinthe eater @ Jul 19 2007, 09:32 AM) *

really crosby? because I thought responding to the topic that was orgianlly posted was the correct thing to do in a thread.

I must have been mistaken

The discussion is about Marteau, not the crap from Canada.
sixela
QUOTE(Alice the absinthe eater @ Jul 19 2007, 06:40 PM) *

Well yeah, but sometimes that's just way to much work Sixela.

So is reading your posts.

QUOTE

I don't think you fully understand how lazy I am right now.

You don't have to make it obviously apparent to all and sundry, you know. Not even orgianlly, organically or origamicably.
traineraz
So speaking of Marteau, instead of Alice . . . I wonder if anyone has been exposed to pre-production samples, and has any idea of the recipe?
louched liver
Hubris.

Hype.

Hiram.
Jaded Prole
You mean expensive prototypes?

Not that I know of.
Icarus
The prototypes are free,
after you pay the cover charge.
speedle
Although I previously thought otherwise, it seems to be the bartender-blogger guy whose the dumass, as far as we here can tell. Unless, that is, some of us, who live in a city that may have several large bridges, know differently and ain't tellin' ?
Icarus
Dumbasses to the left of me
Dumbasses to the right.
speedle
QUOTE(speedle @ Jul 19 2007, 08:19 PM) *
Although I previously thought otherwise, it seems to be the bartender-blogger guy who's the dumass, as far as we here can tell. Unless, that is, some of us, who live in a city that may have several large bridges, know differently and ain't tellin' ?


Edited to correct dumbass drunken english.
traineraz
One would think the mysterious were-HGer would read a potentially incriminating article about himself and ask for revisions.
Absomphe
You mean like including his name, address, and SSN in the article?

traineraz
Credit where credit is due.

So include the account numbers.
speedle
Well, that's the thing about blogging in general. You're not a journalist, so it's basically up to you if you just put out there whatever you hear. Or, for that matter, whether you consult with the subjects of your "piece" to determine if the information is correct and suitable for release. I have nothing against blogs, per se, but it does happen sometimes that things taken for granted with traditional journalism don't exist.
louched liver
Blahg, blahg, blahg.

Unless it's Alan
talkin' w/me.

That's the xit.
Head_prosthesis


It'll be interesting to see how many
horses enter the race and how many
actually make it to the finish line.
louched liver
Straight from
the end of the
nag that fertilizes.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Jul 19 2007, 10:09 AM) *

Operating a still without a license in the US is a felony. "Swapping" samples with other HGer's would compound the situation, because you're exchanging your output for value. Using the US Mail to make these swaps would add the possibiity of mail fraud charges. Serving HG, or allowing it to be served with a nod and a wink at any function for which you've in any way charged an admission fee would likewise exacerbate the situation.

There seems to be a widely held assumption here that all this can be ignored because:
a. this is a victimless crime
b. alcohol is being redistilled, not created from a mash, so it's only a "technical" violation.
c. the whole thing is too trivial for anyone in law enforcement to bother with.
d. the recent partial legalisation of absinthe in the US means that admissions of past HG activity can be made quite safely.

I'd strongly advise against making this assumption, and my guess is that many people who made similar assumptions in other fields are currently sitting in state and federal penitentiaries.

Making it clear explicitly or implicity that you've broken any US law, no matter how trivial, on a public forum or blog is, in my opinion, extremely misguided, especially in the current socio-political climate. I think those who do so are placing both themselves and their friends in jeopardy.


You make an excellent point. To play Devil's advocate, however, isn't it also illegal to export untaxed alcoholic beverages into the US? I don't see LDF, Absinthe Classics, Markus, or Absinthe24 suspending their "technically" illegal activities in order to comply with the law. The law is the law, it can't be cherry picked, though obviously the legal consequences for exporters of absinthe into the US are much smaller than those for a US home distiller.

The originator of Marteau was foolish to admit he was a home distiller, especially since his product isn't even on shelves yet, and what he's admitted to doing places him in greater legal jeopardy than anyone illegally exporting absinthe into the US. However, presenting ones' self as a previously artisinal distiller has become a selling point, especially in the absinthe market, and objectively is no different than what Bugnon did. In order to sell his product, Bugnon emphasized that he used to be a clandestine Swiss distiller. The maker of Hangar One Vodka (and possibly a US absinthe) has also admitted to previously being a "moonshiner" in an internet video.

The risk is there and is very real. Tomorrow the authorities could round up everyone who has admitted to clandestinely making any alcohol in the US, just as they could block all shipments from EU Absinthe exporters who have circumvented US laws and import duties. It's up to those who are playing with fire to judge how careful they should be, but it follows that the less careful someone is, the more likely they are to get burned and burn a lot of other people in the process.
dom_lochet
The case of Bugnon and other Swiss bootleggers is slightly different. When absinthe was made legal again in Switzerland, authorities offered amnesty to those distillers who regularized their situation. So there were no risk at all for them claiming they were former "clandestins".
speedle
So, is this a case where the best course of action for the "community" is to just shut up now and hope that some people got the point?



In other words, does discussing this situation, fraught with danger though it is, become a self-fulfilling prophesy? Or does it just make us feel better, ala schadenfreude?

Donnie Darko
QUOTE(dom_lochet @ Jul 24 2007, 11:31 AM) *

The case of Bugnon and other Swiss bootleggers is slightly different. When absinthe was made legal again in Switzerland, authorities offered amnesty to those distillers who regularized their situation. So there were no risk at all for them claiming they were former "clandestins".


That does make Marteau's case a bit different then.
Ari
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Jul 24 2007, 05:44 AM) *

Tomorrow the authorities could round up everyone who has admitted to clandestinely making any alcohol in the US

Not without evidence.
Just like someone can say "I did Crack a year ago" on a national news program and DEA agents don't bust down the door and arrest them. Obviously it's not smart if the person is still doing it.
Alan
Actually I blame mthuilli for all this. He writes:
QUOTE(mthuilli @ Jul 19 2007, 01:11 AM) *

Apparently an american HGer has gone co.
Marteau

"Marteau is Swiss-style. It has been distiled in the U.S. by an individual for private use …."


Whereas the blog was changed a couple of days ago to say

"It may have been distilled in the U.S. by an individual for private use …"

In fact, that is not even in the blog but in the blogger's response to my incisive question. And for those that haven't re-visited the article, the distiller has now responded in part to some of what has been said here (see the comments there).
Donnie Darko
I believe that is a case of having the cake and eating it too.

Let's not directly claim it originated as an American HG, but let's imply that it did because that will help it sell.

Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Alan @ Jul 24 2007, 02:07 PM) *

Whereas the blog was changed a couple of days ago to say


The blog also says it was about to be approved by the FDA, and apparently confuses all sorts of things, as blogs tend to do. In reality Marteau appears to be nothing more than another absinthe made by Matter, except this time it was Hiram advising instead of Manson.
Steyr850
But it also sheds light on production being moved to the States at some time in the near future, thereby eliminating courier charges.
Wild Bill Turkey
Actually, Hiram's comments on that thread state pretty clearly that this began as an HG.

Also, unless Manson or Giger were HG distillers who came to Matter with recipes and protocols that they had been working out on their own for several years, or unless Hiram has a name that will send thousands of Goth kids running to the stores for anything with his picture on it, I don't see how the projects are the same.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Steyr850 @ Jul 24 2007, 02:46 PM) *

But it also sheds light on production being moved to the States at some time in the near future, thereby eliminating courier charges.


Not really. It says there is no time table, which is hardly "near future".
SoulShade
The projects don't seem similar at all.
Any quality absinthe is good for absinthe in general; any quality absinthe with American ties is good for absinthe in America in particular.
If it is quality, then I'm all for it.

Donnie Darko
Here are the similarities: They're all being sold on something other than what's in the bottle. I'm not against it. If it's good absinthe, that's all that matters. I just think that nobody would give a shit if it didn't have the name of a clandestine US distiller attached to it.

That's cool Hiram is having his absinthe scaled up, good for him. What I'm really waiting for though is a good American Absinthe, because I'm tired of paying a pile of money for shipping on a small bottle of something that's OK.
Hiram
I always find it interesting what vectors these threads take when uninterrupted by actual facts. It would almost appear as if one person skims an article written by someone who isn't the subject in question and without the subject's knowledge, misinterprets it to others, some of whom glance at it, others take everyone else's word for it, and then they all discuss the important and dramatic ramifications of things that are really pretty much irrelevant, because they never happened. A case in point:
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Jul 24 2007, 01:51 PM) *
Here are the similarities: They're all being sold on something other than what's in the bottle.
This comment is based solely on the content of this thread. I haven't even released an official statement yet, let alone begun any marketing. Still, this will be added to the archives of the fictions cited by my detractors.
QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Jul 19 2007, 02:57 AM) *
I'm surprised that anyone would admit publicly to effectively having committed a felony in their own publicity release.
Did I make a publicity release? Did I admit to committing a felony?
QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Jul 19 2007, 06:09 AM) *
Operating a still without a license in the US is a felony. "Swapping" samples with other HGer's would compound the situation, because you're exchanging your output for value. Using the US Mail to make these swaps would add the possibiity of mail fraud charges. Serving HG, or allowing it to be served with a nod and a wink at any function for which you've in any way charged an admission fee would likewise exacerbate the situation.

There seems to be a widely held assumption here that all this can be ignored because:
a. this is a victimless crime
b. alcohol is being redistilled, not created from a mash, so it's only a "technical" violation.
c. the whole thing is too trivial for anyone in law enforcement to bother with.
d. the recent partial legalisation of absinthe in the US means that admissions of past HG activity can be made quite safely.

I'd strongly advise against making this assumption, and my guess is that many people who made similar assumptions in other fields are currently sitting in state and federal penitentiaries.
Speaking of assumptions, did you bother to look at the facts, or even contact me privately to ask wtf, or are you simply adding to the previous assumptions of others? I'm pretty much aware of the US liquor laws, in fact, I have the relevant ones posted at WS. Are you aware of the licensing options in the US? How about Washington state? Guess not. I find it interesting that rather than step in to moderate assumptions and accusations which present a very real threat to my security, privacy and livlihood pending the facts, you chose instead to stoke the fire.
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Jul 24 2007, 06:44 AM) *
You make an excellent point. To play Devil's advocate, however, isn't it also illegal to export untaxed alcoholic beverages into the US? I don't see LDF, Absinthe Classics, Markus, or Absinthe24 suspending their "technically" illegal activities in order to comply with the law. The law is the law, it can't be cherry picked, though obviously the legal consequences for exporters of absinthe into the US are much smaller than those for a US home distiller…
But that's too inconvenient to look at, and goes counter to the desired spin.
QUOTE
The originator of Marteau was foolish to admit he was a home distiller,
Um, he didn't.
QUOTE
However, presenting ones' self as a previously artisinal distiller has become a selling point, especially in the absinthe market, and objectively is no different than what Bugnon did.
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Jul 24 2007, 10:23 AM) *
I believe that is a case of having the cake and eating it too.

Let's not directly claim it originated as an American HG, but let's imply that it did because that will help it sell.
I didn't do that either. A blogger erroneously inferred it. But thank you all for the fine spin job.
QUOTE
In reality Marteau appears to be nothing more than another absinthe made by Matter, except this time it was Hiram advising instead of Manson.
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.
QUOTE(Wild Bill Turkey @ Jul 24 2007, 10:56 AM) *
Actually, Hiram's comments on that thread state pretty clearly that this began as an HG.
Um, no. But most people in this thread certainly would like to make it look like that.

What I said was that I had developed a recipe and that I commisioned a distillery to make it. It will be available online in October. We will try to bring it into the US when possible.

The rest was assuptions by people who know precisely dick about my regulatory status, what I've done, and what I'm doing.

Thank you, I've found this most entertaining, but above all, instructive.
sixela
QUOTE(Hiram @ Jul 24 2007, 11:39 PM) *
Speaking of assumptions, did you bother to look at the facts,


You mean these facts:

QUOTE

However, Washington also has a Chemist Distiller’s permit for only $20 a year, available to commercial chemists and developers who are not manufacturing spirits for sale.


?

treat Oxy's post as a cautionary tale - which may or may not apply to you personally.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Hiram @ Jul 24 2007, 06:39 PM) *

It would almost appear as if one person skims an article written by someone who isn't the subject in question and without the subject's knowledge, misinterprets it to others, some of whom glance at it, others take everyone else's word for it, and then they all discuss the important and dramatic ramifications of things that are really pretty much irrelevant, because they never happened. A case in point:
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Jul 24 2007, 01:51 PM) *
Here are the similarities: They're all being sold on something other than what's in the bottle.
This comment is based solely on the content of this thread. I haven't even released an official statement yet, let alone begun any marketing. Still, this will be added to the archives of the fictions cited by my detractors.
QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Jul 19 2007, 02:57 AM) *
I'm surprised that anyone would admit publicly to effectively having committed a felony in their own publicity release.
Did I make a publicity release?


It appears that your absinthe was given to someone who wrote about it quite enthusiastically and promotionally, included a photo of the labelled bottle and absinthe in glass, and said a whole bunch of stuff about it that sounded official (awaiting FDA approval, coming to the US next year, etc). Perhaps you had nothing to do with any of that, and if so, I suggest you smack the shit out of the person who got a labelled bottle of your absinthe without your permission, and wrote all that official sounding innuendo without your permission. Don't blame us for taking what the blogger said seriously, since it was presented very seriously and seemed written with the specific intention of generating enthusiasm for the product.
Hiram
So you believe everything you read on the internet from a blogger you don't know?

Given the circumstances, if it happened to someone else, they would have been alerted in private and allowed to correct the situation instead of highlighting it with all sorts of exaggerated speculation.
Wild Bill Turkey
Indeed, I think we all took the announcement in the blog as having your sanction, what with the "Thanks for the Great Write-up, Jamie!" comment which I'm assuming really did come from you. The part about the early stages of development being done under a full moon with a single still must have really pissed you off, then, even though you said nothing to contradict it in your elaboration on the same blog.

It was this statement, combined with your remarks about the years of development, that lead me to believe you had acknowledged the HG nature of that development, and not some "mob mentality" assumption I made from reading this thread, and not any attempt to put a negative spin on the story. In fact you might have noticed that my comment was made by way of asserting that "your" absinthe had more personal development behind it, from a true student of absinthe, than the other "celebrity absinthes" in Matter's line. Thank you for clearing that up, though.
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