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Full Version: Things will never ever change - Not if we sit and watch
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So Mugabe goes about blatantly stealing the election in Zimbabwe, jails the election officials responsible for the counts in the constituencies he lost (accusing them of under-counting his votes) and continues his regime of brutal oppression and economic madness. China sends him a delivery of 77 tonnes of weapons, including 3 million rounds; how many innocent Zimbawean civilians will receive their own delivery of one of these rounds, despatched speedily through the barrel of one of Mugabe's guns? Who else does he intend to use these rounds against?

And it is important to note that the South African government issued a permit for this ship to land and for trans-shipment of its cargo from Durban to Harare. That in itself is a pretty clear indication of what side South Africa will be on when Mugabe uses these millions of rounds against his own people. Thankfully it was the Trade Unionists who stopped this shipment entering South Africa by refusing to unload it.

Mugabe announces "Things will never, ever change". And unless something is done about it he's right.

Mbeki and the other African leaders would rather stand and support one time comrade than support the people of Zimbabwe ('quiet diplomacy' really means 'quiet support'). Does Mbeki think that the struggle to free Zimbabwe was fought for the personal glory of Mugabe rather than the people of Zimbabwe? And what do we in the West do? Make the occassional "tut, tut.." and tell Mugabe what a bad boy he is.

It really is time to sort out Zimbabwe by use of force, and since the African nations will clearly never do anything to upset their good old buddy Robert, the West needs to step in.
I've been following this on the BBC, and I was shocked at the developments of the last 3 days or so. I really thought he would be forced to step down in the wake of the elections. He wrecked their economy, but the people don't seem to see it that way.
Jaded Prole
The trade unionists did the right thing in refusing to unload the shipment. Massive resistance on the part of the people of Zimbabwe is an option as they can't shoot everyone and no one can govern an ungovernable nation. I wouldn't support armed intervention by other countries who have their own agendas.

China has never had a good foreign policy but Americans are in no position to criticize it. I agree that Mugabe must go but it is really up to the people of Zimbabwe to make that happen.
QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 19 2008, 08:55 PM) *
I agree that Mugabe must go but it is really up to the people of Zimbabwe to make that happen.

And how exactly are they going to do that when he gets his arms cargo, shipped from his buddies the Chinese, containing 3 million rounds of ammunition, 1500 40mm rockets, 2500 60mm and 81mm mortar shells, and 93 cases of mortar tubes, on top of the arms he already has in his possession? And make no mistake, all this weaponry is being acquired to use on the people of Zimbabwe.

How exactly do you suggest Zimbabweans get rid of Mugabe? They've tried voting him out, but he's not having any of that. Now he's getting armed and ready to slaughter any opposition. What next? Should they run at his guns brandishing their farming tools?

The people of Zimbabwe cannot get rid of him by themselves. How can they?

So should we sit around saying that Mugabe must go, but we wash our hands and say that it is not our place to get involved and that it is for the people of Zimbabwe to do this, even though the Zimbabwean people are in no position to get rid of him? Or say that its for the African Union to sort out (even though we know they view Mugabe as their comrade and will support him)?

Fuck that. We could get rid of him and we should.
Jaded Prole
Maybe they'll get rid of him the way the Phillipinos got rid of Marcos.
Donnie Darko
We don't give a shit about those Africans. Yeah, we give aid to them but that's only so we can use that as an excuse for not really doing anything to help them
The U.S. doesn't have any available soldiers or money for Africa because George Bush sent it all to Iraq, so there's nothing we can do.
Well putting a stop to the ship packed full of arms that's out there in the sea around Southern Africa, heading for Mugabe via Angola or Mozambique, would be a good start. It wouldn't cost much to do that.

Or are we too worried about upsetting the Chinese that we stand by and let them arm Mugabe to the teeth so that he can ramp up the level of slaughter of Zimbabweans?

On another point, the South African authorities blatantly broke their own laws by allowing the ship to leave South Africa after the court order to prevent its shipment across South Africa had been obtained by the IANSA through the South African courts. If the South African authorities had abided by there own laws, then this shipment would have been stuck in Durban unloaded. But of course they knew that, so they let the ship go, knowing that its deadly cargo would get to their buddy Mugabe through another route. The South African government has well and truly shown their colours here, they should not be let off the hook for that.
The US is not the cavalry. We've been trying that with great success in Iraq and Afghanistan in case you haven't noticed.
Or are we too worried about upsetting the Chinese that we stand by and let them arm Mugabe to the teeth so that he can ramp up the level of slaughter of Zimbabweans?

More than likely, Yes.

My thoughts prezactly. "We" wouldn't want to give the Chinese reason to interdict our more questionable shipments to illegitimate causes, either.
Jaded Prole
Hell, all the Chinese have to do is convert the billions of dollars they hold (and the debt we owe) to Euoros and we're finished.
Donnie Darko
And then all the American investors who have pumped money into their economy will sell, and then their bubble will pop. It won't happen.
Donnie Darko
Any number of things could cause the China bubble to pop, that's just one of them. The Chinese invest in US stocks too. Killing our currency is a bad way to get a return on investment.

Why haven't the Chinese converted American debt into Euros yet, if it's so advantageous?
QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 20 2008, 02:28 PM) *
all the Chinese have to do is convert the billions of dollars they hold…to Euoros and we're finished.

Um…no. Then whoever held the Euros the Chinese swapped for dollars, now hold dollars instead of Euros.
Jaded Prole
Why haven't the Chinese converted American debt into Euros yet, if it's so advantageous?

Maybe the threat is more advantageous for now, Grasshopper. Also, keep in mind that now that they have the factories and the technology, we 'murkins don't hold a monopoly on consumption with our failing dollars. There are more Chinese than anyone else and then there's India, Russia, Europe. . .

We are not the world.
Donnie Darko
Yeah, we all know that. What I also know is that the insane amount of economic growth in China has been partly due to American investments.

What evidence do you have that China is going to convert our debt to Euros, and can you also explain to those of us who are not economists why that would be so beneficial for China?
Jaded Prole
Aside from the stability and value of Euros, the threat of their calling in our debt or converting currencies gives them influence and power that they would not otherwise have. Yes, much or their wealth is based on US investments but they could just as well copy the technology and pump out their own stuff or just nationalize the plants. As they are a nuclear power of vast size, there is really little we could do about it.

That we've put ourselves in this position with China is a crime that Clinton was a very large part of. USAID was encouraging plants to move to China and elsewhere and even providing economic incentives with money we paid in taxes. China may yet screw up but they, as a people, are very business savvy and have a long-term strategic outlook. We on the other hand, have been screwed by a system driven by corruption, an obsession with short-term maximum profits and an inability to see beyond the next fiscal quarter.
The Standard Deviant
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This was from a more hopeful time in the nineties.
Speaking of China, this is a fascinating read.
Le Gimp
1984 is a few years behind schedule.
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