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The Fée Verte Absinthe Forum - The Oldest, Largest, Most Authoritative Absinthe Forum. > The Monkey Hole > Arts & Philosphical Sundries
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Ricki
"Artwork" by Pete Doherty goes on display in Paris, and is actually for sale..

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/galle…07151-1,00.html

They look like they have been drawn by a 2 year old with a nose-bleed.

Who can actually call this 'art'?
Jaded Prole
Looks like art to me.
absinthist
Blood looks artificial. It is not art. The concept has been hijacked from Anselm Kiefer's "Parsifal" (1973), where the artist used his own blood. And who is that Pete Doherty, anyway? The fact he is sitting in Wormwood Scrubs, and used to shag with Kate Moss, doesn't make him even an "artist".
Donnie Darko
What a self indulgent wank. I hate lazy art.

Here is my new favorite artist, Theo Jannsen:
http://www.strandbeest.com/film.html

He is an ex-physicist who has created these entirely autonomous moving sculptures that are powered solely by wind. Watch the youtube video in the link. The craftsmanship is astounding, and they almost seem "alive".
Steve
Peter Doherty is a mess. But I'd rather see "art" made from blood spatters than that made by those two guys who "paint" with their own shit, piss and spooge. I don't remember who they were-- I think I saw them on Graham Norton a few years ago.
Grim
Are you talking about Gilbert & George? I've never really worried too much about whether it was art or not, but there are some things they've done that have made me… distracted in a good way. I'd be leery of seeing anything they've worked on more than once. Must be some pretty boring shit for anyone that lives in London.

In fact, Bend It soitanly was inspired by a drunk Oxy, dancing out of his favorite barber chair.
Steve
Yes, Gilbert and George! I only saw them on Graham Norton, I haven't really studied their art. I'll have to watch that vid and maybe give them a google later. Thanks.
Ricki
I just can't believe that "art" like this actually gets people's attention and money.
Donnie Darko
Well, some people buy crystals because they think they have magical healing powers, and some people buy half-assed drawings with blood on it because they think it's good art.

In other words, some people are dumb.
The Standard Deviant
Paintings with Doherty's blood should probably have some biohazard stickers plastered on.
Jaded Prole
Different kinds of art speak to different tastes. Those who ask if something is "art" are usually not artists or people who have any art education. Nevertheless, what art "is" is much more difficult to define than what Absinthe is.

Often when the question "Is this art?" arises, I'm likely to say, "I could be."


Is it good art, may be an entirely different question.
Absomphe
QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Apr 26 2008, 02:01 PM) *

Often when the question "Is this art?" arises, I'm likely to say, "I could be."


I couldn't agree with you more, Prole.

From early on in this forum, there's been no question that you've been a piece of work. abs-cheers.gif
Patlow
Pete Doherty is an artist in every sense of the word because he has created a world and an aesthetic that embodies everything he has ever done. Is it to everyone's taste? Maybe not. Is he a great painter? I'm not sure he's trying to be. But he walks the walk, which is really rare these days. His music, especially from the Libertines is still majorly influential in its genre (real indie rock) and his current records are much more interesting and honest than 99% of the crap out there. Pete is important, love him or hate him. And I for one will keep it rockin' with Pete in Shotter's Nation.
Tibro
Well then, you can ignore me, cuz I'm not kewl enough to give a xit that I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And I'm xure Pete feels the same about me. Hardly matters one way or the other.
absinthist
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Apr 25 2008, 11:14 AM) *

Here is my new favorite artist, Theo Jannsen:

This is Art, indeed. The guy is really talented. Reminds of Leonardo da Vinci's machines and the Surrealists, especially Animais Currens Ventosa-Walking. Perfect symphony of movement and mystery. Fabulous!
Bruno Rygseck
Agreed. It is hard to believe the machines/creatures are real.

Patlow
QUOTE(Spoon @ Apr 25 2008, 11:15 AM) *

Peter Doherty is a mess. But I'd rather see "art" made from blood spatters than that made by those two guys who "paint" with their own shit, piss and spooge. I don't remember who they were-- I think I saw them on Graham Norton a few years ago.


I think you might be talking about Dash Snow and his crew.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt…Den-us%26sa%3DN

I adore them. One of whom is Ryan McGinley, and he is no slouch (at 24 he is the youngest photographer ever to have a solo show at the Whitney). That means something.

Living a life as if it was a work of art is what DaDa was all about. Read a Dali bio, for heaven's sake.

BTW, piety is a very unattractive quality and remember that Beethoven was once considered a shocking joke undeserving of the title, "artist."

Donnie Darko
Doherty is certainly an "Artist". Then again I think many cabinet makers are. I just have strong aesthetic preferences, and I find the drawings with his blood spatters aesthetically empty, with nothing really distinguishing about them, more like something done by an art hobbyist rather than by a disciplined hard working artist. But of course some people like the haphazard aesthetic and the work resonates with them, which is fine. I just don't get it. It appears to me that the sketches are lazy and the blood spatters aren't following any design or apparent motivation, and so there's no real evidence of a clearly executed idea, unless the idea he was going for was "i don't care".

I see what you're saying about Dada, and like the anarchic fuck it all attitude about Dada, which quite importantly caused numerous aesthetic conventions to be turned on their heads, but unfortunately also allowed a lot of really flaccid half-assed art to slip through the cracks, and allowed a lot of posers to be held up as if their work was worth the time spent examining it. Maybe I'm being hyper-judgmental, but that's me. I also think part of the value of Dada was the prankster nature of it.

And to extend my hyper-judgmental nature, it seems to me the Dash Snow guy living off his grandma so he can do lots of drugs and "live as art" seems to me to be 90% self-indulgence, 10% art. Self-indulgence can lead to genuinely talented individuals producing fantastic things, for example Hendrix was certainly self-indulgent, but it's also what killed him and greatly limited what he could have contributed. I hope I don't sound pious about it, as it has nothing to do with any "right" way to make art. It just happens that one important criteria for me in judging art is evaluating the amount of labor, craftsmanship and talent that went into it. Duchamp's "Fountain" was conceptually extraordinarily important, but I think it unfortunately inspired a lot of these late-coming artists who lack Duchamp's vision, and whose work is largely anachronistic because it is far past the time frame that made Duchamp's erasure of aesthetics so significant.
Provenance
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Apr 26 2008, 09:13 AM) *
In other words, some people are dumb.
Thus ensuring a continuing market for absinth.
Patlow
Donnie, I think I agree with a lot of what you say here. I just get pissed off at the whole, "This isn't art" thing. It really gets to me. But Pete really is something. I think it's a real shame that he is such a mess because his music and personality and way are very special. And I am not lining up to buy a blood painting, btw… Heh.
Nymphadora
I'm curious what the future holds for the shock-art medium. Piss, vomit, blood, semen and feces are old hat. Are there any other secretions to push the envelope?

Hmmmm…….anger and controversy still works.

I shall paint a masterpiece using the testicles of endangered manatees. Wait…..do manatees have testicles? Bugger. Panda parts might prove sufficient.
Marc
Try with scalps from the kids you're teaching to, should sell.
The Standard Deviant
Well, the present is along the lines of self-cannibalism and goldfish in a blender (both the same artist):

http://www.evaristti.com/iweb/--Polpette%2…di%20Marco.html

http://www.evaristti.com/iweb/---Helena%20…20GoldFish.html
Pataphysician
The problem with nearly all "transgressive artists" today is that they have no target. Is anybody offended by piss and shit anymore? Only the most pinched-faced old grannies -- is that your audience? Why would you want to communicate with them? Hey artist, what have you done for ME lately?

Duchamp's "Fountain" addressed a very specific situation with The Society of Independent Artists in New York City in 1917. (He was testing their democratic notion of "jury-less" exhibitions in which everything was supposed to be accepted.) The "target" that Duchamp was "attacking" was actually his own circle of friends.

You find that across the board with Dada. It wasn't just wild, blindfolded swings at pinatas. They were very specific in their targets and very exact in their strategy. It was immediate and addressed issues that their intended audience understood right away. They didn't give a shit about history or people who wouldn't understand the context, so their work wasn't designed to last (Duchamp's "Fountain" was thrown away, all examples you see of it are copies). Artists of today haven't learned from their example.
Absomphe
QUOTE(mthuilli @ Apr 28 2008, 11:20 PM) *

Try with scalps from the kids you're teaching to, should sell.


What he said.

After all, from the way you describe them, it's not like those scalps are protecting anything.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Pataphysician @ Apr 29 2008, 10:47 AM) *

You find that across the board with Dada. It wasn't just wild, blindfolded swings at pinatas. They were very specific in their targets and very exact in their strategy. It was immediate and addressed issues that their intended audience understood right away. They didn't give a shit about history or people who wouldn't understand the context, so their work wasn't designed to last (Duchamp's "Fountain" was thrown away, all examples you see of it are copies). Artists of today haven't learned from their example.


That's what I meant when I was talking about the prankster nature of it. Even though it was targeted, it was still anarchic, basically a swift kick in the pants to whatever artistic rules the target holds dear, but not affirmative of any defining aesthetics of its own. I think that's also probably why it didn't last very long, since a lot of it was only defined by what it was trying to undermine.

Then again maybe the greatest prank of all played by Dada is the fact that it inspired a lot of talentless self-appointed rebels to make shitty art.
Pataphysician
"Dada was a raindrop that fell from heaven. They've learned to imitate the fall, but not the raindrop."
thegreenimp
How to be an artist
Provenance
Let's see absinthist do this.

Well, no. Let's not.

absinthist
I am using too traditional and too toxic colours to do this without harming myself.
Absomphe
Aw, go on…just think of those nineteenth century artists who drank all that antimony chloride, and copper sulfate, and take just one more for the team! LARS!.gif
absinthist
SbCl3 ain't cheap evill.gif

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search…ail/SIAL/311375
Rimbaud
QUOTE(Absomphe @ May 2 2008, 06:39 PM) *

Aw, go on…just think of those nineteenth century artists who drank all that antimony chloride, and copper sulfate, and take just one more for the team! LARS!.gif


Must be what Rimbaud (the other one) & Verlaine were drinking. Holy Frankenstein green, Batman!:
Doctor Love

If it tastes like basil it can't be art cdog-plain.gif
Absomphe
Is that from The Gospel According to St. Gorge?
Nephrite
Better ask St. Basil.
Tibro
Respectfully.
QUOTE(Absomphe @ May 15 2008, 03:49 AM) *

The Gospel According to St. disGorge

Absomphe
Indeed.


QUOTE(Nephrite @ May 16 2008, 12:59 AM) *

Better ask St. Basil.


I wish you were tarragone.
Nephrite
You misspelled Tarragona.

Absomphe
No, norom™, I didn't.

Look at at the sentence in context, and think about it.
G&C
That'll hurt.
Absomphe
Hopefully.
Nephrite
Ouch shock.gif
Kirk
Ha!
traineraz
I think this

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-h…-art-claim-scam

is truly the future of art:

QUOTE
Beginning next Tuesday, Shvarts will be displaying her senior art project, a documentation of a nine-month process during which she artificially inseminated herself "as often as possible" while periodically taking abortifacient drugs to induce miscarriages. Her exhibition will feature video recordings of these forced miscarriages as well as preserved collections of the blood from the process.


Fake, but festive. I'm thinking of getting it on DVD to send to all my relatives for Xmas.
Marc
Nice.
Donnie Darko
That's a great example of investigative journalism omitting the investigative part. Pretty funny her faculty fell for it too. Of course the jackass at Newsbusters hijacks the whole thing and tries to use it for his anti-liberal agenda, which isn't even the point. The point is that too often journalists have extremely low standards of evidence when it comes to investigating and reporting.

Reminds me of when James Randi created a fake psychic persona and had this South American kid pretend to be the psychic. A ton of newspapers did stories on what an amazing and proven psychic the character was, when in fact he didn't even exist and had no track record. The reporters just literally regurgitated every word they were told in press releases and even embellished some things.

Nymphadora
Did you expect any different from the Ministry of Truth?
Pataphysician
How true, Donnie. And I can do you one better: "Negativland: Helter Stupid"
Kirk
Too bad the realists have failed so spectacularly.
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