Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Issues with Jade Pf 1901
The Fée Verte Absinthe Forum - The Oldest, Largest, Most Authoritative Absinthe Forum. > Absinthe & Absinthiana > Absinthe Brands Discussion
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
EdouardPerneau
I've got an sept 07 PF 1901 … The absinthe has sevral issue the burnt™ taste was more pronounced that time and the absinthe seems to be underpowered . Does someone else got those issues ?
Steve
I am halfway through a bottle with the same date, and it is perfectly fine.
Provenance
QUOTE(EdouardPerneau @ Aug 6 2008, 02:15 AM) *
Does someone else got those issues ?

Poor spelling and grammar?
EdouardPerneau
yes as usual as good as your french
Doctor Love

Were you using the original cork?

My bottles of Jade absinthe don't usually last that long, but that caramel flavor does seem to build a bit over time.
Rimbaud
I have an issue with it: it's too fucking expensive.

It's not exactly going to fly off the shelves in the U.S. at $110 a pop, either.
EdouardPerneau
QUOTE(Doctor Love @ Aug 6 2008, 09:59 AM) *

Were you using the original cork?

Yes I do , I use an "prong" type cork puller so the cork is keeped intact


QUOTE(Rimbaud @ Aug 6 2008, 11:14 AM) *

I have an issue with it: it's too fucking expensive.
It's not exactly going to fly off the shelves in the U.S. at $110 a pop, either.

I agree … I could say that we can get a better tasting absinthe for that money , and with those issue that I get with PF 1901 and my last bottle of blanchette… with those bottle I don't want to buy Jade anymore … I think that the Swiss could make better offer more constent at a cheaper price .

Also Pierre Verte and Oxy are making very great tasting absinthe that rivals jade to my taste and that don't have that burnt ™ taste … Doubs is wonderfull and Roquette 1797 is one of my favorite … I'm looking forward for more offering from them
Donnie Darko
The cost of Jade is prohibitive. The bottle of PF1901 I had was very good, I noticed no "burnt" thing you are speaking of. The Marc alcohol base in all the Jade products contributes a distinct aroma that you won't find in other absinthes, and I think some people misidentify that as "burnt", but I don't think that's out of line with what vintage absinthes were like. Anyone who has smelled rectified Marc can identify that distinct aroma in Jade. Blanchette has a different "caramelized" thing going, not sure why that is the case.

I agree though that as far as bang for your buck goes, what's coming out of the Pernot distillery is the best option. I expect L'Italienne is going to be really good for the price too, though not a Pernot product. And speaking of Pernot products, anybody know when the fuck Vieux Pontarlier is going to be on shelves here?

Doctor Love

I think it's personal preference when it comes to that flavor character that many of the Jades share, and also a matter of variety. The 'burnt' character or whatever you want to call it is something that I don't mind, it brings a subtle caramel flavor in that seems to balance with the herbs and provide a rich taste. Additionally I enjoy having a variety of different absinthe flavor profiles available, so while a Doubs or Roquette are very enjoyable, I wouldn't want to only drink those as I feel even the best of absinthes would become boring if you never contrasted it with anything else.
Rimbaud
DD, I seem to remember PV mentioning Sept. or Oct. for the release of VP.
absinthist
According to this, it is already available.
Wild Bill Turkey
Yeah, well, according to that source Pernod 68 is clean, balanced and tasty.
speedle
QUOTE(Rimbaud @ Aug 6 2008, 11:14 AM) *
I have an issue with it: it's too fucking expensive.

It's not exactly going to fly off the shelves in the U.S. at $110 a pop, either.




For a while there, the St. George was doing exactly that, at between 80 and 100 bucks a bottle, depending on how badly you wanted to get ripped off.

Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Rimbaud @ Aug 6 2008, 01:17 PM) *

DD, I seem to remember PV mentioning Sept. or Oct. for the release of VP.


$65 deposited into savings for Sept or Oct…
Absinthia
QUOTE(EdouardPerneau @ Aug 6 2008, 12:15 PM) *
The absinthe has sevral issue the burnt™ taste was more pronounced that time and the absinthe seems to be underpowered.


I've had the same kind of idea of this Edouard from August 2006 I'm having right now. That's right, two years old. It smells a bit like you say "burnt" but I think it's what Doctor Love said, that caramel-like flavor that tends to build over time. Though I don't know where it comes from.

Overall, I think there are better absinthes than Edouard, even this two years old one, but that's just my humble opinion and is not trademarked and a bit off topic. pirate2.gif
absinthist
QUOTE(Wild Bill Turkey @ Aug 6 2008, 10:20 AM) *

Yeah, well, according to that source Pernod 68 is clean, balanced and tasty.

That source as such lists only one legitimite product to be credited as "absinthe", i.e. Vieux Pontarlier. However, what do we EVER expect from some most "journalists"?
Patlow
A little bird told me it's looking like October. And yes, that will be a great day. Even Kubler and Lucid are sold out where I am. Pfff…
Zenzero
That must be hell then!? If I'm correct.
Grim
The "taste of the alambic"… atleast partially. Move a recipe/charge of herbs and spirit to another alambic, you'll find a different taste. I've run exact recipes on different systems, only to find they take on distinct, albeit slight sub-aromas/flavors. The many avenues to altering a simple, sound recipe are innumerable: from the vestiges of a certain lute, to a hint of the de-scaling agent used in the piping (especially for systems with a barboteur), essential oils that remain from prior runs, even the water used in distilling, the character of one or more herbs of a certain source, the method of heating (double fonde vs. bain-marie vs. feu nu…), the storage vessels, the reducing water, the piping that transfers spirit from container to container, the colouring herbs, the colouring vessel (or basin), the system of ageing (including the type or material of container)… the way the coupes or cuts were made during the run, but more importantly, why.

Hardly a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma… but it certainly makes a helluva lot more sense if you had an opportunity to actually see how the stuff was made. Good luck with that.
Grim
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Aug 6 2008, 09:00 AM) *

The Marc alcohol base in all the Jade products contributes a distinct aroma that you won't find in other absinthes, and I think some people misidentify that as "burnt", but I don't think that's out of line with what vintage absinthes were like. Anyone who has smelled rectified Marc can identify that distinct aroma in Jade. Blanchette has a different "caramelized" thing going, not sure why that is the case.

A good number of very old absinthes I've tasted have an esprit-de-vin or perhaps an esprit-de-marc rounding the whole flavour out. It unifies and tightens separate notes in the best examples, and distracts when it comes from some of those makers who I like to say… suck. Very technical term, I hardly ever whip it out.

Now about that "marc," you're talking about. Marc-derived spirits come in many forms. I seem to remember Ted stating his was assumed from a "marc du vin." When we look at the specifics of how spirits can be obtained from the leftovers of wine, the playing field isn't equal. And that much considered, I certainly don't suspect we're talking about cake of pressed red wine being thrown in a potstill, lathered with water and rectified a few times.

The base doesn't smell off like bad marc. Bad marc is awful…
Doctor Love

And why those flavors seem to have the potential to shift or change so much with just a bit of age in a high proof distilled spirit stored in a sealed glass bottle is still not something I totally understand.

Rimbaud
Don't talk about Marc Campbell like that!
Grim
No shit, that old Hippie lives nearby! I think eric played at his bar once, before I was born or something. evill.gif
Grim
QUOTE(Doctor Love @ Aug 6 2008, 01:12 PM) *

And why those flavors seem to have the potential to shift or change so much with just a bit of age in a high proof distilled spirit stored in a sealed glass bottle is still not something I totally understand.

You'd be surprised at the capacity any distilled spirit has to change immediately after distilling, sealed in glass or not. Absinthe has the added burden of shaking a warm bath in scent-giving-herbs off. What do you think most of these absinthes you're drinking now have been rested in? Oak?!

Probably an enameled-metal, bulk-tank, or HDPE containers.
Provenance
I seem to recall that someone attempted, fairly successfully, to duplicate the so-called burnt aroma some have associated with early Jade products.
Grim
If he wasn't hiding like a bitch in his lil' cave, he could probably answer you.

Remind yourself what he's describing though…
"If you want to know what I mean by burnt™ take a bottle of arak and smell it; take a bottle of any Swiss LB and smell it; take a bottle of Kubler and smell it; and finallly take all three bottles of Jade and smell them. There is a character that is in all of them…"

… the smell of a spirit-base and this, are not necessarily the same thing.

Point I'm trying to make is this. The burnt™ thing was coined by someone that knew how absinthe is made, borrowed by those that didn't, and thrown around with reckless abandon by both. There are many negative tastes that traditionally distilled spirits can take on that are described and ascribed to specific errors. You'll find 'em thrown around all over the place in the old days: goutte de this and goutte de that. And they are all legitimate descriptions… the idea is the same with the usage of the term burnt™, though for some reason, the specifics of the term have evaded many people. It's become more of the cool thing to say, than a tool for understanding, which is too bad.

Edit: But "brûlé" is really a misnomer. That smell is absolutely horrid, like an ashtray was rinsed with your drink. No comparison to a lil' empyreumatic funk.
Doctor Love

QUOTE(Grim @ Aug 6 2008, 02:19 PM) *
You'd be surprised at the capacity any distilled spirit has to change immediately after distilling, sealed in glass or not. Absinthe has the added burden of shaking a warm bath in scent-giving-herbs off. What do you think most of these absinthes you're drinking now have been rested in? Oak?!

Probably an enameled-metal, bulk-tank, or HDPE containers.


Heck if they were aged in Oak then I'd understand it more. But if I have a decent bottle of gin or vodka and stick in my cabinet for 6 months, it doesn't taste much different, if at all, than when I put it in. I assume it's the nature of the coloration stage that seems to make absinthe flavors more volatile?

Provenance
One day I should probably compare that experimental sample with a variety of anise spirits.
Helfrich
QUOTE(Grim @ Aug 6 2008, 11:58 PM) *

Remind yourself what he's describing though…
"If you want to know what I mean by burnt™ take a bottle of arak and smell it; take a bottle of any Swiss LB and smell it; take a bottle of Kubler and smell it; and finallly take all three bottles of Jade and smell them. There is a character that is in all of them…"


That's cooked, not burnt. Except for the arak, generally.
Grim
EXACTLY!

Note the "Edit" I made above…

QUOTE
Heck if they were aged in Oak then I'd understand it more.

Why's that?

QUOTE
I assume it's the nature of the coloration stage that seems to make absinthe flavors more volatile?

More… "volatile?"… hmm. What do you mean? Like, "man that smells like Sterno!" or "why's this smell so moldy, like a wooden spoon pulled out of standing water" or what?
Doctor Love

Because some spirits like Scotch are deliberately aged in charred barrels for the chemical reactions that take place with the wood which impart additional flavors over time.

EdouardPerneau
QUOTE(Provenance @ Aug 6 2008, 05:52 PM) *

I seem to recall that someone attempted, fairly successfully, to duplicate the so-called burnt aroma some have associated with early Jade products.


like that absinthe



But if you all remember … Ted Use the still that were burnt™ in a masive fire 107 years ago … So Perhaps Pernod Haden keep them for that reason … I did taste a smoky flavor in it Perhaps he is making Perique in the same still and it could stay in the piping as grim said
Grim
QUOTE
Ted Use the still that were burnt™ in a masive fire 107 years ago … So Perhaps Pernod Haden keep them for that reason … I did taste a smoky flavor in it Perhaps he is making Perique in the same still and it could stay in the piping as grim said

Whoooooa, cowboy. I didn't say that.

Any distiller worth his salt makes sure that the pot and lines are clean or rinsed before he uses 'em. I said that leftover junk in the lines could produce a discernable alteration to one's recipe. In general. In no way am I speaking to the tune of Combier, as I've NEVER distilled there.

As for the alambics, that's a really cool discussion worth having. I've shared images here, before, of the Egrot stills that were in place prior to when the Renaud alambics were purchased and added. But the Renaud alambics actually pre-date those Egrot stills…

QUOTE
The distillery still uses two original, circa 1870 alambics that were purchased from the famous Pernod fils distillery after the French absinthe ban and are now employed to create the extraordinary Jade vintage absinthe reproductions. The historic distilling room, with its iron gallery designed by Gustav Eiffel, also contains the same Egrot alembic stills which were installed in 1899 at the height of the distillery's own production of fine absinthe under the name 'Blanchette,' re-launched in early 2006 with the help of T. A. Breaux.
EdouardPerneau
QUOTE
The distillery still uses two original, circa 1870 alambics that were purchased from the famous Pernod fils distillery after the French absinthe ban


I taught that they were purchased after the fire in 1901 blink.gif since Pernod had buy Brand new egrot to modernize their equipment
Grim
If someone says otherwise, I'd be surprised, but documentation I have depicts a different style of stills used from 1882 forward… whether up to the point of the fire I couldn't say with absolutely certainty, but I'd suggest looking at page 64 of "Pernod 200 years."


Click to view attachment

And the Renaud stills were purchased AFTER the French ban, as in anytime after March 16, 1915, from Pernod Fils.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Grim @ Aug 6 2008, 05:10 PM) *

A good number of very old absinthes I've tasted have an esprit-de-vin or perhaps an esprit-de-marc rounding the whole flavour out. It unifies and tightens separate notes in the best examples, and distracts when it comes from some of those makers who I like to say… suck. Very technical term, I hardly ever whip it out.


Ha. It's hardly their fault they didn't anticipate their base spirit overwhelming everything else with a century of age.

QUOTE
Now about that "marc," you're talking about. Marc-derived spirits come in many forms. I seem to remember Ted stating his was assumed from a "marc du vin." When we look at the specifics of how spirits can be obtained from the leftovers of wine, the playing field isn't equal.


Marc du vin is almost as vague as "Marc", as the stuff in bottles that you can buy called "Marc" is Marc du vin (at least as far as I know, and I don't know far), which tells you nothing other than it was made from wine leftovers, which could be anything from the smegma of a Peter Vella boxed Chardonnay to a Provençe Rosé to a Drouhin Bonnes-Mares. The rectified Marc du vin I smelled (can't remember if I sent you that or not) had an aroma reminiscent of the base in Jade. I should add that that Marc wasn't rectified very well, and it also was Marc made from some Burgundy appellation, a far cry from Marc made from Languedoc wines, which Pernod Fils used and which are enormously different in character from the wines that have gone into any Marc I've bought off the shelf. I had a Rosé from Languedoc last night, by the way, which was eye-poppingly better than anything I've ever had from Provençe. Go figure. Once upon a time everyone thought Languedoc wines were garbage. Not sure what the opinion of them was when Pernod Fils was alive.

QUOTE
The base doesn't smell off like bad marc. Bad marc is awful…


I bet if you microwaved a nickel from your pocket and then sprinkled a little cinnamon and acetone on it it might capture that distinct aroma.

Jade doesn't smell like that. But it does smell like Marc to me, which is on purpose.

As for the "cooked" smell, still not sure what causes that, but I've smelled it in a lot of modern absinthes, except for Doubs, and I don't really detect it on Coquette either, but the assemblage method may have something to do with preventing the "cooked" thing, or perhaps the murk from the slight overcoloring obscures the "cooked" thing to my limited olfactory abilities.
EdouardPerneau
IPB Image

I think all the stills are looking new if we have a look back 1905, But has Grim stated, the stills are suposed to be brought in the 20's …

from LDF :

The Combier Distillery, located in the center of the beautiful Loire Valley is where Jade absinthes are made. It still uses two original, circa 1870 alambics that were purchased from Pernod fils in 1920, after the French ban.
Zman
Those (in front) are the infusion colorators. The still (with the Hessian ballz) are in the rear.
EdouardPerneau
In the front there is 2 renaud colorator behind the 2 egrot … So I admit I did a mistake perhaps they where using also vintage renaud still as well
absinthist
QUOTE(Helfrich @ Aug 6 2008, 02:22 PM) *

That's cooked, not burnt. Except for the arak, generally.

I am smelling Arak from Jordan right now, there is no burnt characteristics in it, reminds more of a well-cooked rye than crappy marc. In a sense it boils down to what happens AFTER it is cooked, i.e. the numerous ways of aging the product: absinthe, arak, whisky, vodka, whatever.
absinthist
QUOTE(Doctor Love @ Aug 6 2008, 02:09 PM) *

Heck if they were aged in Oak then I'd understand it more. But if I have a decent bottle of gin or vodka and stick in my cabinet for 6 months, it doesn't taste much different, if at all, than when I put it in.

It does change, but the change is very delicate and needs years to develop into the more perceptible nuances you would not expect to come from these spirits. Lil' oxegenation as well as evaporation, the initial proof it was put in, exposure to temperatures, letting it breathe when you open it, etc, all these contribute to the change.
Helfrich
QUOTE(Grim @ Aug 6 2008, 11:58 PM) *

Edit: But "brûlé" is really a misnomer. That smell is absolutely horrid, like an ashtray was rinsed with your drink. No comparison to a lil' empyreumatic funk.

That's what I meant. I still have a minor semantic issue with "empyreumatic funk" as in my vocabulary that also would involve scorching, but I think we are referring to the same phenomenon.

"Cooking" in this context would mean altering the organoleptic properties of a substance by heat induced reactions without burning it. That's basically what you do in your kitchen when not charring your food.

In my part of the world, a "cooked" distillate is considered an error (referred to as "kooksmaak" in Dutch manuals). Cooked wormwood has a very peculiar taste and smell. It's remarkable that it seems to be fully accepted in the absinthe scene (I haven't noticed it in vintage, though), including the experts, except for a handful of people who (I'm guessing) call it burnt™.
dakini_painter
Perhaps I misunderstand this term "cooking", but I presume you mean something more than taking raw veggies and making a stew or soup: ie converting them to cooked veggies.
Helfrich
Not much more.
Zenzero
QUOTE(Helfrich @ Aug 7 2008, 12:12 PM) *
…In my part of the world, a "cooked" distillate is considered an error (referred to as "kooksmaak" in Dutch manuals). Cooked wormwood has a very peculiar taste and smell. It's remarkable that it seems to be fully accepted in the absinthe scene (I haven't noticed it in vintage, though), including the experts, except for a handful of people who (I'm guessing) call it burnt™.
Burnt absinthe or not, could it be that a characteristic tail(like) taste, after being in a bottle for almost a century, is not as dominant as it was before or maybe not even present anymore?

Which reminds me, when in Pontarlier at the Guy distilleries, while I was taking pics of one of the distillers emptying one of the stills
the whole room filled with the odor of well cooked anise and wormwood.
A aroma very similar to the one that releases itself from most just opened bottles of Swiss la bleu.
Donnie Darko
That's cool F. Guy distillery let you take pics. The guy doing the bottling shot me a very nasty look when I took pics. My french at the time wasn't good enough to understand that he apparently said "no pictures".

It did smell like sweaty over-cooked anise though, pretty much like how Segarra and F. Guy taste. I always assumed that the "cooked" thing Helfrich and Grim were talking about came from the anise, as chemically it contains the most glucosides of anything in the macerate, and the glucosides are hydrolyzed into glucose when heated (which gives anise its sweet taste) and glucose can have a "cooked" (caramelized?) aroma when pushed too far and I'm assuming is what causes the toasted honeyed aroma common in tails, tails being representative of the longest heated part of the anise, among other things.

That's interesting that Helfrich thinks it is from the wormwood being overheated, I hadn't though of that. Perhaps it is accepted among contemporary palates because it's not something most of us can easily identify? The way in the past that I've found helped me to identify whether something was "cooked" or not was to smell an empty beaker after the absinthe had been poured out, or to drop a little of the neat absinthe on the back of a spoon and smell the spoon. I've also found that way helpful for identifying other issues, but I'll be honest I'm not entirely sure if what I'm smelling is a hint of tails, being cooked or a coloring being pushed too far. At least to my nose there seems to be some crossover in characteristics between those flaws.


The wormwood character of vintage brands doesn't seem "cooked". It blew me away how velvety and surprisingly fresh the wormwood in the Dornier-Tuller was. I can't imagine that what they were doing overcooked that plant at all, regardless of whether the drink had a century of age under its belt or not. Perhaps many contemporary distillers don't quite have their heating perfected yet?
Leopold
QUOTE(Helfrich @ Aug 7 2008, 04:12 AM) *

In my part of the world, a "cooked" distillate is considered an error (referred to as "kooksmaak" in Dutch manuals). Cooked wormwood has a very peculiar taste and smell. It's remarkable that it seems to be fully accepted in the absinthe scene (I haven't noticed it in vintage, though), including the experts, except for a handful of people who (I'm guessing) call it burnt™.


It is considered a flaw in the distillation of nearly all the spirits that I am aware of….

I mentioned this at the WS under the thread on Verte vs. Blanches , but when you add so much solid material, including sugars, in a still with relatively little liquid, and then use direct fire in a still, and heat too quickly, you're going to get some Maillard or caramelization (there's a difference between the two) reactions. (how's that for a run-on sentence?) This is considered taboo in the production of most spirits.

It can also happen if you distill too slowly. Obviously, the liquid in the still is evaporating as collect your run, leaving even more solids for various heat related chemical reactions, with very little liquid protecting the solids. I have yet to see an impeller of some kind in an Absinthe still as you would see used in an eaux-de-vie still. I would also imagine that many of the alembics are direct-fire, which adds to this issue.

Whether or not this is what some of you are tasting in various absinthes, I haven't a clue.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Leopold @ Aug 7 2008, 11:38 AM) *

I would also imagine that many of the alembics are direct-fire, which adds to this issue.


Segarra is the only absinthe distiller I am aware of that employs direct-fire. Pernot, Combier and a host of others have steam jacketed alambics.
Helfrich
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Aug 7 2008, 05:17 PM) *

That's interesting that Helfrich thinks it is from the wormwood being overheated

I was just referring to the characteristic smell and taste of cooked wormwood. Other herbs can be overheated as well of course. The sweet nuttiness (wouldn't know how to describe it) of cooked anise is an example. There's no 'it', no thing-in-itself, in something as heterogeneous as a pot of cooked up herbs, but it can be overheated.
Helfrich
QUOTE(Leopold @ Aug 7 2008, 05:38 PM) *

Whether or not this is what some of you are tasting in various absinthes, I haven't a clue.

Might well be. Anyhow, it's great to have another distiller here who's willing to share some thoughts.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2018 Invision Power Services, Inc.