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dakini_painter
DL, talks about his Liberty, and how he doesn't like government spending his money in ways in which he doesn't approve. Even the foundation of the US is supposedly based on this idea of Liberty.

Here's a couple ways in which each person has absolutely no liberty whatsoever.

1. Choosing your parents, and therefore your genetic makeup, as well as where you are born. This is a huge factor that will completely determine a lot of who you are and where you grow up and the opportunities available to you.

2. When you're going to die.

3. How much of what you've accumulated in this life you get to take with you when you die.


There's loads of times in life when we operate without liberty. Your boss dictates when you are at work. There might be a little bit of leeway, but not a lot. You still have to get permission to take days off. And if you're sick, you've got to call in and tell someone you're not going to be there.

And if your the boss, try taking the Liberty of skipping a payroll one week. Or blowing off an important client whose looking to give your company a lot of business.

Anyway, I just thought I'd toss this out. And see what happens.

OCvertDe
Because there isn't enough room to argue about this shit in the other topic?
Doctor Love
dp, thank for the beautiful illustration of why we should do everything we can to preserve the liberties which we CAN control!

Although to address your points:

1. Quite right, although via genetic manipulation soon parents will get to choose their children. Creepy.

2. You can't choose the moment, but certainly your life choices can and do effect longevity, so I can't say this one is completely without its liberties. Toss in the notion of suicide and I'd have to say there is some liberty there too.

3. Ah but you talk of only material things. If we proceed on the assumption that there is some life beyond, surely the most important things in life such as the memories of those we love and most treasured moments in life would be taken along. While we don't have liberty in choosing whether we take those, we certainly have liberty in how we live those moments and thus remember them.

As to your other points, my boss may dictate when I am at work, but I have the liberty to quit. The boss also has the liberty to quit if he's tired of payroll or seeing clients.

Now if you would like to step it up a notch beyond liberty and talk about whether there is such a thing as free will, then we'll really have a philosophical inquiry on our hands.
dakini_painter
The chance of choosing your children is minimal. We might know some superficial things such as eye color, but there's so much more scientists don't know. We don't know the genetic causes of disease. The whole approach to finding disease (or identifying those suspectible) through genetics has been a big failure. A few things have been found, but for the most part, many diseases have impacts through a large number of genes, as well as all the controller DNA.

When it comes to statistics, yes, eating healthy, getting proper exercise, all those recommendations tend to lead to healthy lives, and longer ones. However, to translate that to individuals doesn't work. People die at all ages. Even people who've done all the right things, still keel over dead, sometimes unexpectedly. Then there's accidents. The people killed on the commuter train in LA recently. They weren't expecting to die that day. Some of them were probably very healthy, worked out at the gym, eat healthy food, and were expecting a nice long life. Nope.

What evidence do you have that beings take memories with them after they die? What about the people with Alzheimer's and dementia? As you get older you remember less, and to think that won't happen to me, it's delusional. There's no guarantee of that.

And you're next job will be the same. Same kinds of rules. Quit as many times as you want. It'll be fundamentally the same, again and again. And what will the boss do, go on welfare for the free handout that you don't want to give him? Go be a homeless person? People simply don't think like that, and they don't live their lives like that. At least the vast majority of people. They take the situation as it is, and work within that framework.

I have no interest in philosophy. Complete waste of time.
Provenance
Men are free when they belong to a living, organic, believing community, active in fulfilling some unfulfilled, perhaps unrealised pupose. -- D.H. Lawrence
Doctor Love
QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 14 2008, 07:38 PM) *
The chance of choosing your children is minimal. We might know some superficial things such as eye color, but there's so much more scientists don't know. We don't know the genetic causes of disease. The whole approach to finding disease (or identifying those suspectible) through genetics has been a big failure. A few things have been found, but for the most part, many diseases have impacts through a large number of genes, as well as all the controller DNA.


Oh ye of little faith, with developments involving epigenetics along with traditional genetics research, narrowing down various methods of manipulating offspring is only a matter of time.

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 14 2008, 07:38 PM) *
When it comes to statistics, yes, eating healthy, getting proper exercise, all those recommendations tend to lead to healthy lives, and longer ones. However, to translate that to individuals doesn't work. People die at all ages. Even people who've done all the right things, still keel over dead, sometimes unexpectedly. Then there's accidents. The people killed on the commuter train in LA recently. They weren't expecting to die that day. Some of them were probably very healthy, worked out at the gym, eat healthy food, and were expecting a nice long life. Nope.


True, but calamity is by no means universal. The opposite situation also occurs. The volunteer soldier who goes into battle knowing he may die that day is there by virtue of his own liberty. The elderly person who finally decides to give up on living and shortly expires has done so by their own liberty. The distraught individual who has taken their own life has done so by virtue of their own choice.

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 14 2008, 07:38 PM) *
What evidence do you have that beings take memories with them after they die? What about the people with Alzheimer's and dementia? As you get older you remember less, and to think that won't happen to me, it's delusional. There's no guarantee of that.


There is no evidence, of course, but nor is there any to the contrary, it's a purely philosophical argument. Although I will point out there have been a number of experiments involving deep brain tissue stimulation with electric current that have reversed the symptoms of Alzheimer's, fascinating stuff. It suggests that the information is not lost, but merely that the brains electric resolution becomes incapable of accessing it.

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 14 2008, 07:38 PM) *
And you're next job will be the same. Same kinds of rules. Quit as many times as you want. It'll be fundamentally the same, again and again. And what will the boss do, go on welfare for the free handout that you don't want to give him? Go be a homeless person? People simply don't think like that, and they don't live their lives like that. At least the vast majority of people. They take the situation as it is, and work within that framework.


I'm sorry but that's simply not true. People have dramatically different experiences from one job or one career to the next. Many are motivated to start their own businesses, perhaps one of the most excellent expressions of liberty, so that they have no boss at all.

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 14 2008, 07:38 PM) *
I have no interest in philosophy.]Complete waste of time.


I feel sorry for you, as I think you are missing out on some of the most important questions we can consider.
Green Baron
QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 14 2008, 07:38 PM) *

I have no interest in philosophy. Complete waste of time.


Quite right.

But I can see why Doc feels sorry for you. You'd miss out on the joys of philosophizing about the notion of liberty…or some other useless nonsense. That is, until they clone your ass and then tweak the philosophy gene to 11. bobw.gif
Doctor Love
Clones of me are the world's best hope brain2.gif
Green Baron
for a cheep and plentiful source of food. spam.gif
Jaded Prole
QUOTE
The elderly person who finally decides to give up on living and shortly expires has done so by their own liberty. The distraught individual who has taken their own life has done so by virtue of their own choice.


An example of true nivete! Life is unpredictable in length, enjoy it as if it ended in a day -- it might!
dakini_painter
QUOTE
True, but calamity is by no means universal.



That's why everybody dies. To make sure it (calamity) is universal.


QUOTE
Oh ye of little faith, with developments involving epigenetics


Continually underestimating the complexity of the world/universe and thinking that we can truly know it through the limits of our senses has been wrong time and time again.

DL, I run my own business. I may have certain options such as the hours I work, and that's something I like; however, I am the much greater slave to my business than any employee ever will be.
Kirk
QUOTE
The volunteer soldier who goes into battle knowing he may die that day is there by virtue of his own liberty.

No.
If you apply certain pressures in certain ways, you get certain results.
The volunteer soldier has no free will.
QUOTE
There is no evidence, of course, (sentient thoughts after death) but nor is there any to the contrary,

Not much evidence here of sentient thought before death.
Absomphe
QUOTE(Green Baron @ Oct 14 2008, 11:02 PM) *

for a cheep and plentiful source of food. spam.gif


I thought you baby birds preferred worms.
Rimbaud
QUOTE(Doctor Love @ Oct 14 2008, 09:02 PM) *

While we don't have liberty in choosing whether we take those, we certainly have liberty in how we live those moments and thus remember them.


We don't necessarily remember moments the same way we actually experienced them at the time. It's the nature of memory.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 15 2008, 08:56 AM) *

QUOTE
True, but calamity is by no means universal.



That's why everybody dies. To make sure it (calamity) is universal.


That is also only a matter of time. Since natural selection determines only which characteristics allow one to be the most successful reproducer, it has not winnowed out genetic flaws which lead to death an aging later in life. For example, the gene for Huntington's disease is alive and well because it doesn't strike individuals until middle age, which is usually past the age of reproduction, so it cannot be selected against. Nor can alzheimers. As it so happens aging itself happens at the expense of having a virulent and highly reproductive youth. Mice which were manipulated to have less reproductive hormones live almost twice as long as normal mice and didn't experience signs of aging until far later. The implications for life extension science are obvious. It won't be as simple as just turning some gene on or off, manipulating genetics is a far more complex and extremely difficult process involving a ton of factors, of which we can control very very few of them at the moment. But I suspect within 100 years people will regularly be living to 150 or even much much older, to the point where the leading causes of death will more likely be from accidents than from natural causes.
Doctor Love

QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Oct 15 2008, 04:01 AM) *
An example of true nivete! Life is unpredictable in length, enjoy it as if it ended in a day -- it might!


And I'd never suggest otherwise JP, we are in agreement on that.

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 15 2008, 05:56 AM) *
That's why everybody dies. To make sure it (calamity) is universal.


That suggests that death is always a calamity, I'm not sure everyone would agree.

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 15 2008, 05:56 AM) *
Continually underestimating the complexity of the world/universe and thinking that we can truly know it through the limits of our senses has been wrong time and time again.


True, but that tends to be more of a criticism of science than it is of philosophy. No shortage of philosophers have been eager to point out humanity's lack of knowledge.

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 15 2008, 05:56 AM) *
DL, I run my own business. I may have certain options such as the hours I work, and that's something I like; however, I am the much greater slave to my business than any employee ever will be.


No doubt, but starting your business was a result of having the liberty to do so (and thank goodness for that, need more absinthe!). In many countries it simply would not have been allowed.

QUOTE(Rimbaud @ Oct 15 2008, 07:13 AM) *
We don't necessarily remember moments the same way we actually experienced them at the time. It's the nature of memory.


Point taken, and we can't always control how we remember them. But hopefully we can exercise some capability to impact the experiences on which they are founded.

QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Oct 15 2008, 07:45 AM) *
to the point where the leading causes of death will more likely be from accidents than from natural causes.


or angry mobs killing old people over their endless social security payments blink.gif
Green Baron
QUOTE(Absomphe @ Oct 15 2008, 07:10 AM) *

QUOTE(Green Baron @ Oct 14 2008, 11:02 PM) *

for a cheep and plentiful source of food. spam.gif


I thought you baby birds preferred worms.


True..but I can't ignore the marketing opportunities that would be available for Doc-

"Come on and taste the Love" or "You wanna peice a me?!?" ironchef-1.gif

Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Doctor Love @ Oct 15 2008, 11:14 AM) *

QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Oct 15 2008, 07:45 AM) *
to the point where the leading causes of death will more likely be from accidents than from natural causes.


or angry mobs killing old people over their endless social security payments blink.gif


Nah, the scales of what is "old" will just shift. They already have within our lifetimes. We've added 30 years to our life expectancy in the last century alone. 48 used to be "Old". Now 78 is "Old", and we haven't even begun to implement personal genomics yet. This will of course necessitate an increase in the retirement age, and also likely necessitate a reduction of breeding, but I honestly don't think the population will object since most would likely accept an increase in the retirement age in exchange for having longer better quality lives (hey the longer you work, the bigger your nest-egg becomes, might not even need social security if we can extend life span long enough).
dakini_painter
QUOTE(Doctor Love @ Oct 15 2008, 11:14 AM) *

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Oct 15 2008, 05:56 AM) *
That's why everybody dies. To make sure it (calamity) is universal.


That suggests that death is always a calamity, I'm not sure everyone would agree.


I'm sure for the decreased it's quite an inconvenience.
Doctor Love

Depends on how well they were getting along living.
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