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The Fée Verte Absinthe Forum - The Oldest, Largest, Most Authoritative Absinthe Forum. > Absinthe & Absinthiana > General Absinthe Discussion
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EdouardPerneau
Hey , I've just take the time to unload them to make a kind of promotion for the new french forums
Pontarlier distilleries
Absinthia
Cool, thanks EP! I had that map with me in Pontarlier, but never got around to actually try and find even one of these sites, except for Pernod Fils. Or should I say, the chocolate powder factory.
EdouardPerneau
it was my pleasure , Did they let you enter in ? I try twice but the director don't want to
Steve
Cousin Jeune:
Click to view attachment
sixela
You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.
EdouardPerneau
But wasn't in Pontarlier
Steve
It's in or just outside Pontarlier. Besides you posted one in Couvet. And it's lovely inside!
EdouardPerneau
I agree :) will it be better than the old one ?
sixela
QUOTE(sixela @ Jun 29 2009, 01:15 AM) *

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.


Or better:

Cousin: It's you !!
PERNOT: How are you gentlemen !!
PERNOT: All your base are belong to us.


Conte d'Ugenta
In Rue de Besançon there are at least two: Junod and another one I don't remember the name..
Alan
QUOTE(Spoon @ Jun 28 2009, 07:12 PM) *

It's in or just outside Pontarlier. Besides you posted one in Couvet.

If anyone wants to know about all the distilleries in Couvet pre-ban, this might be useful.
EdouardPerneau
QUOTE(Conte d'Ugenta @ Jun 29 2009, 05:16 AM) *

In Rue de Besançon there are at least two: Junod and another one I don't remember the name..



Yes there was languetin but it has been distroyed …
Conte d'Ugenta
I meant two whose building still exist: one is the '70 club which is probably Junod, and then walking in the St. Pierre direction there's a building with the distillery name written above the main door, just don't remember it (or better, I remember it as Junod, but the Junod is the '70 club so it must be another…)
EdouardPerneau
perhaps junod's office was pretty near
dr_ordinaire
QUOTE(sixela @ Jun 29 2009, 12:54 AM) *

QUOTE(sixela @ Jun 29 2009, 01:15 AM) *

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.


Or better:

Cousin: It's you !!
PERNOT: How are you gentlemen !!
PERNOT: All your base are belong to us.


Sixela has been disqualified from posting until he/she answers a very simple question posted in Dr. Magnan Lab thread.

Sixela knows SOME about the English language, but shit about absinthe. Life is far more nuanced than S can conceive…
Green Baron
Absinthe is more nuanced than apparently Dr. O can conceive.

Shit, it's not like anybody's actually tasted numerous samples of many of the major brands from the late 1800's up to the ban. And it's not like the best of these examples have been praised as some of the finest tasting beverages conceivable, by multiple, reliable sources.

And surely, no historical documents ever praised absinthe's taste. Naaaa.

From the 1899 Pernod Fils catalog (translated by Artemis):
QUOTE
Little by little, however, thanks to its fragrance and pleasant taste, the elixir came to the attention of not only the sick, but to that of more and more fans, so that the recipe had already acquired monetary value when when Mr. Henri-Louis Pernod acquired it to exploit it commercially…

By a happy inspiration, Mssrs. Pernod decided to remain faithful to proof-spirit of wine; this resolution made the fortune of their house; the higher quality of their product, attested to by the preference accorded to it by consumers, is due primarily to the exclusive use of alcohol made by distillation of wine; it's not only that this alcohol gives to Pernod absinthe the fine flavor which distinguishes it…
sixela
QUOTE(dr_ordinaire @ Jul 11 2009, 10:41 PM) *

Sixela has been disqualified from posting until he/she answers a very simple question posted in Dr. Magnan Lab thread.

I guess not. What a pity you're not the administrator around here, eh?
dr_ordinaire
Sorry to interrupt, Sixela, but we need you in another thread. Where you explain how diluting absinthe will make it sweeter. (Or less bitter.)
Shabba53
I thought that was already weighed in upon. Watering down somethign that's bitter does indeed make it taste less so. It's pretty simple math actually. The concentration of bitter molecules is reduced by 60% or more with the addition of water, meaning the tongue processes that much less bitterness with each sip.

As I said before, try it with Campari or any other bitter spirit.
dr_ordinaire
QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Aug 6 2009, 02:33 PM) *

I thought that was already weighed in upon. Watering down somethign that's bitter does indeed make it taste less so. It's pretty simple math actually. The concentration of bitter molecules is reduced by 60% or more with the addition of water, meaning the tongue processes that much less bitterness with each sip.

As I said before, try it with Campari or any other bitter spirit.


Really?

It's kinda funny for people who have been here for years to hear that. You see, originally there was no bitterness to begin with.

Has bitterness become Politically Correct?

Am I going to be the Rosa Parks of absinthe?

Absomphe
I hope not, if it means you get to sit in the front of our own particular short bus.


Besides, Doc, despite your penchant for over-the-top self-aggrandizement, I'll always think of you (affectionately, of course) as closer to Zombie3.gif than to the iconic Ms. Parks. wink.gif
dr_ordinaire
No problem with you bringing me down from my over-the-top-self-aggrandizement.

I hope you hold the same high standards when someone uses my background to state that I cannot possibly understand French.

Absomphe
Absolutely.

As I would if someone used my background to intimate the same thing

And in my case, that person would be spot on, since (other than a few commonly used French words) I don't.
dr_ordinaire
Cute, Abs.

Quite cute.

Some people cannot do right, and some people cannot do wrong.

Go fuck yourselves.
Shabba53
QUOTE(dr_ordinaire @ Aug 6 2009, 05:43 PM) *
You see, originally there was no bitterness to begin with.

Never heard that one before.

And I HAVE been around for years. Been reading through the forums for a lot longer than I've been registered.
dr_ordinaire
You don't remember?

You don't remember Ted and Don Walsh telling us that absinthe had 90/100 mg/Kg of thoojone? And everybody agreeing?

You don't remember Ted telling us that absinthe had NO thoojone when he started selling in Europe? And everybody agreeing.

You don't remember Ted telling us that absinthe had 30 mg/Kg of thoojone when he made a bitter? And everybody agreeing.

So the fact that you are just one more of the memory-challenged people here does not worry me.

Either you suffer from the same selective memory of the old timers or

fuck off noob!
Shabba53
I remember all of that. I also remember reading that people used to believe the world was flat, before better science came around and proved them wrong. I once heard that some noobs used to think that earth was the center of the universe until better and more accurate science came along.

History is smattered with suppositions and credible theories and evidence that is later proven wrong by better and more accurate science. How can you not understand that?

Are you saying that the science now is actually a step down from the antiquated assumptions used 10 years ago?

Is it better to agree with Dr. Arnold, who has totally avoided any and all questions about the most recent scientific studies because then he'd have to admit that the majority of his fame came from innacurate assumptions?

I guess all of those passages from the Lancet back in the 1800's that stated their skepticism about chop.gif and absinthism were trash as well? Better to listen to Magnan himself I guess.
Absomphe
I think O's just saying that "scientific" results can be manipulated to suit the scientist's agenda.

Not that I believe for an instant that Ted would have ever stooped to such depths just to sell his green booze, mind you.
Shabba53
Oh, I know that's what he's saying.
dr_ordinaire
QUOTE(Absomphe @ Aug 6 2009, 04:56 PM) *


Not that I believe for an instant that Ted would have ever stooped to such depths just to sell his green booze, mind you.


OK, so Ted is not cool now. For how many years, Abs, you and the Forum intelligentzia dropped to your knees and… swallowed… EVERYTHING Ted said?

dakini_painter
The way I read what dr_o is saying, is that a lot of people used to believe X, Ted said X was true, and people agreed. Now, people don't believe X is true.

I think there was a lot of supposition about absinthe both in the past (Belle Epoque) and more recently. There's still many questions that don't have solid answers. We may never know much about the constituents of the absinthes at the lower end of the quality scale.

On the topic of bitterness vs sweetness, I'm going to hazard a few hypotheses. And some questions.

o Hypothesis #1: The primary bitter principle of absinthe is absinthin, C30H40O6. I'd like to say this is a fact since nearly every source says it's so, however, I don't know what the effect of distillation is on the chemical. Since wormwood distilled in alcohol is less bitter than the undistilled menstruum, it seems that an interesting analysis would be to determine what percentage comes over in the distillation.

Lachenmeier's paper on Assessing the Authenticity of Absinthe, references work by Schneider and Mielke (1978 and 1979) indicating that absinthin is the bitter principle of A. absinthium.

My guess is that Shabba is correct in that given quantity X of absinthin molecules, by adding water these are diluted, and therefore each sip seems less bitter than the undiluted sample.

On the issue of sweetness, what do people think, are all absinthes equally sweet? My experience is that they are not (ignoring bitterness here). And are they more or less sweet neat versus diluted?

dr_ordinaire
OK, of all the explanations for absinthe's bitterness or lack thereof, the one I like the most is my own:

People who wrote about absinthe were… writers, a famously bohemian and poor bunch, so they were only able to afford the crappiest stuff, and they described it accurately.

This was my theory until the last study that got what seems to be a random sample from a bar, and they STILL were described as bitter.

Now, I have no idea.
Jaded Prole
Could be.
Patlow
Click to view attachment
dr_ordinaire
What is your point, Patlow?

Personally, I'm sick and tired of a controversy that does not reflect what I think, anyways.
Patlow
My point is that it seems like the same argument is replayed here over and over again, ad infinitum (sp?). Hence the premise of the movie Groundhog Day (and the inspiration of my post).

But! BUT! The fact that it keeps coming up, might be note worthy.

Is bitter bad? You seem bitter and I like you. So go figure. I like absinthe too, bitter fucker!
Patlow
Maybe absinthe is like this song? This song is great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3m4e45bTo
dr_ordinaire
No argument.

I quoted some people calling absinthe "bitter".

Most people in this Forum think otherwise.

Fine.

Signed,

Dr. O.
speedle
Maybe absinthe was never bitter, only the people that drank it. Like some of us now.
Absomphe
One, in particular, anyway.
dakini_painter
Does the article say the arrondissement of the bar? What kind of clientele they usually had? Just because a random sample was taken from a random bar doesn't mean they'd have good product. Or the authorities may very well have left the better brands untouched, knowing their reputation.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were many cheap brands that may well have been bitter. And for varying reasons and in degree.
Conte d'Ugenta
In the heyday they did know how to make absinthe, and hence they knew wormwood needs to be macerated AND distilled. If you distill wormwood it basically loses almost all of the bitterness (for the reasons DP already pointed out), and even if you put a shitload of wormwood, the absinthe won't be bitter (I experimented for fun with insane amounts of wormwood which yelded more than 120mg/lt of thoooojon). Still absinthe can be very bitter because of improper coloration with too much pontica. Ask Boggy, now his stuff is pretty good and very interesting, and no longer super bitter. The difference? Surely learning curve but mainly less pontica in coloration.
I'm sure cheap brands in the past were affected by a wide range of flaws, from toxic compounds added, to simple mistakes caused by lack of knowledge such as heads and tails contamination or improper coloration (which could result in a bitter absinthe).
Just like what happens now with wines, where you can find methanol contaminated wines, wines made with chemical extracts or simply wines with an unpleasant taste given by flawed production.

What I know is that Pernod fils, Edouard Pernod, Jules Pernod, Berger weren't bitter at all cause I tasted 'em, and people who tasted the other premium brands Oxy found never reported of a bitter absinthe. So we can say with a good degree of approximation that good brands weren't bitter. Then I'm sure cheap brands could be anything, from toxic to bitter, but so what? Isn't it the same with today's wines or olive oil or other products?
dr_ordinaire
QUOTE(Conte d'Ugenta @ Aug 7 2009, 05:00 AM) *

I'm sure cheap brands in the past were affected by a wide range of flaws, from toxic compounds added, to simple mistakes caused by lack of knowledge such as heads and tails contamination or improper coloration (which could result in a bitter absinthe).


Again, sorry for quoting the post immediately above mine, for clarity.

Thanks to the Conte I realized that I've been making a mistake equating cheap with bitter. Cost is not a marker of excellence or lack thereof.

A gourmet recently deceased said that McDonalds French Fries were the best in the world, at any price.

This got me to thinking that poisons (from an evolutionary point of view) should not be bitter, acre or, resuming, disgusting. Poisons only work if you swallow them.

So cheap crappy absinthe may have been good tasting, for all we know. Which adds another layer to the mystery.
Provenance
QUOTE(dr_ordinaire @ Aug 6 2009, 05:40 PM) *
of all the explanations…the one I like the most is my own

QUOTE(The_Master_Alchemist @ Nov 14 2003, 08:24 PM) *
I like many other people have a theory.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Aug 6 2009, 09:13 PM) *

The way I read what dr_o is saying


You read what Dr. O was saying? Why did you go off and do such a stupid thing?
dr_ordinaire
We were engaging in some civilized dialogue among absintheurs, Donnie.

You are welcome to join us.
Donnie Darko
Good point, I don't think the topic of absinthe's bitterness has ever been addressed here before, and you certainly have never mentioned it prior to this point, so it is quite fascinating. I suppose I just feel there's nothing I can contribute to this incredibly fascinating question of how absinthe was extremely bitter even though most pre-ban absinthes tasted are not bitter. I think I should just leave this discussion to the experts, so carry on.
Absomphe
Just in case you missed it, Doc, that wasn't bitterness, just sarcasm.
dr_ordinaire
Maybe your attempt at sarcasm was not very good, Abs.
speedle
Mebbe, but donnie's was.
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