Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Full body scanners at airports.
The Fée Verte Absinthe Forum - The Oldest, Largest, Most Authoritative Absinthe Forum. > The Monkey Hole > The Newgate Calendar
Pages: 1, 2
hobgoblin
Would you rather feel safe in the knowledge that a bomber with explosives sewn into his underpants is likely to be spotted (as there is no way that current pat down procedures would allow airport security to feel someone's crotch as part of the search) or would you rather protect the privacy of yourself and others at the risk of being blown to bits?

Privacy and 'human rights' concerns are a load of tosh in this instance. Fit scanners as standard part of airport security on all flights, along with the usual metal detectors, pat down search, removal of shoes etc.
OCvertDe
Sure…?
Tibro
You know people are going to start wearing lead underwear, don't you?
hobgoblin
You'd need strong elastic to hold those up. A bit awkward if you needed to go for a piss too.
Provenance
No need for such things. The bad guys have an alternative.

QUOTE
(CBS) Al Qaeda has developed a new tactic that allows suicide bombers to breach even the tightest security, as CBS News correspondent Sheila MacVicar reports.

Inside a Saudi palace, the scene was the bloody aftermath of an al Qaeda attack in August aimed at killing Prince Mohammed Bin Nayef, head of Saudi Arabia's counter terrorism operations.

To get his bomb into this room, Abdullah Asieri, one of Saudi Arabia's most wanted men, avoided detection by two sets of airport security including metal detectors and palace security. He spent 30 hours in the close company of the prince's own secret service agents - all without anyone suspecting a thing.

How did he do it?

Taking a trick from the narcotics trade - which has long smuggled drugs in body cavities - Asieri had a pound of high explosives, plus a detonator inserted in his rectum.

hobgoblin
That's grim. Short of intimately strip searching every passenger, how can we protect against that? X-ray?

The trouble is that they don't discriminate between who they focus on. I was once pulled over a couple of years ago and given the 3rd degree when they were randomly pulling people over as part of security checks. Being a white, Catholic, from Northern-Ireland, perhaps they thought I was part of the Belfast Brigade of Al-Qaeda? I felt like saying "wrong sort of terrorist profiling mate and the IRA never bombed planes anyway, and certainly not using suicide bombers".

Although when IRA terrorism was in full swing the British authorites never had any qualms about profiling and pulling over Irish people, and fair enough. I was held and questioned for an hour once back then. But nowadays, when the risk is even greater, they shy away from any sort of profiling when it comes to Islamic terrorism.
dakini_painter
With new technology, it'll become easier and easier for individuals with an attitude problem to blow up others they perceive as enemies.

And all the armies in the world can't protect us. Armies are now obsolete.
OCvertDe
If only the same could be said for the governments behind them.
Oxygenee
It's perfectly possible to profile successfully, Israel has done so for decades. Their technique is not discrimination based on crude racial or religious demographics, but intense observational analysis from the time of booking to the departure gate. No one who - as Abdulmutallab did - bought a one way ticket for cash, and checked in no luggage, could get on an El Al flight without the most exhaustive scrutiny. And if you fly El Al, you don't get some bored check-in clerk asking the inane "did you pack your bags yourself" question, you get a searching and intense interrogation from a specially trained operative on your background and reason for flying.

If the threat level remains where it is today, all airlines will have to adopt at least a variation of this information-driven approach. Any purely mechanically-based screening process, no matter how sophisticated, will simply be circumvented.
Marc
QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Jan 1 2010, 12:54 PM) *

Any purely mechanically-based screening process, no matter how sophisticated, will simply be circumvented.

So true, Al-Qaida will always find a way to get through any technology-based detection system, that's part of their daily training, frightening…
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Oxygenee @ Jan 1 2010, 06:54 AM) *

It's perfectly possible to profile successfully, Israel has done so for decades.


So you mean to say that rather than spending billions of dollars on security devices that can be circumvented, we could just catch possible attackers if we applied common sense? But if we do that, how will we manage to continue our security policy of setting piles of money alight with little if any demonstrable benefit?
Wild Bill Turkey
After the "Shoe Bomber", everybody had to take their shoes off in airport checkpoints. Does that mean that now, after the "Underwear Bomber"…
Donnie Darko
No. The TSA will probably just make everyone wear their underwear on the outside of their pants. Clearly that will foil all those would-be attackers.
Patlow
I just flew 4 times in the past week, NOTHING has changed as far as I could tell. Nothing.
Donnie Darko
Oh, that's just because those puppy-dog cuddly Islamists were pre-occupied trying to murder a guy who drew a cartoon portraying them as violent. They didn't have time to hop on another trans-atlantic flight of love, peace and redemption this week. Boy, that cartoon sure was wide of the mark, wasn't it?

Keep flying though, we need all the citizens up there we can get to take down the next freedom fighter, since law enforcement is pre-occupied asking old ladies to take their shoes off and figuring out how to get those nipples in focus on the millimeter wave scanner.
Patlow
I must admit I do think about how I would fight just about every single person on the plane, about how I can get to their seat and stab them with my pen in the neck or just Kung Fu kick their knee out before they can make it to the cockpit.

And the shoes are still the best. I mean, OMG. Shoes… So fucking stupid. Ugh.
dakini_painter
I don't believe radical Islamists are cuddly.

My landlady (of the factory), her son is a Marine in Helmand. She's very worried about him. His vehicle has been hit twice with IED's and I'll just leave it at that.

Maybe we should just build a bridge to Europe. Forget flying.
Shabba53
Individual teleporters. It's the only way to fly.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Jan 4 2010, 06:35 PM) *

My landlady (of the factory), her son is a Marine in Helmand. She's very worried about him. His vehicle has been hit twice with IED's and I'll just leave it at that.


That's terrible. I sure hope he ends up OK.
G&C
QUOTE
Maybe we should just build a bridge to Europe. Forget flying.

Use a row boat.
It's only a pond.
Tibro
Looks the Brits have a minor problem with the introduction of the full body scanners.
OCvertDe
HA!
Kirk
Security guards are trained professionals, they would never sell a picture they got for free, right?
hobgoblin
Technology alone won't solve it unless you start reducing the risk by using profiling. Trouble is there is this ridiculous mindset that profiling is something to be avoided at all costs, and that we need to be sensitive and careful not to upset ethnic (or religious) groups by suggesting that a young, asian, Muslim man is more likely to be a suicide bomber than a white, English, granny who teaches Sunday School. Strange though that they had no problem in profiling me 20 odd years ago, when I was a young, white, Catholic, male from Northern Ireland, when the IRA bombing campaign in England was in full swing. What is the difference now?
Donnie Darko
Even without profiling, it seems pretty perplexing that this guy was let on a plane. In order to profile correctly, one has to have competent screeners along with a well-defined procedure to follow, and neither us nor the Netherlands could manage even that.

The only reason I can think of why intelligent profiling has been avoided thus far was fear of aggravating the tantrum-prone baby that is Islamism, which demands respect and hyper-sensitivity at all times while offering up no respect or sensitivity of its own. Walking on eggshells for someone who is continually throwing more eggshells under your feet and who uses the slightest crunch as a rallying cry is a futile exercise.

Of course we should not target Muslims in general, as the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful reasonable people. But I see nothing wrong with profiling and millimeter-wave scanning people who fit a specific demographic that is most common to would-be attackers. We have no qualms about getting undressed for a physician for a routine exam that is likely to turn up nothing. Profiling and scanning is less invasive and is equally preventative and safety-conscious, so I'm surprised there's even any debate over the matter.

The real issue seems to be competence, training and vigilance on the part of the screeners, and an intelligent profiling approach. If what Israel does for El Al works (it obviously does), there's no excuse for us to not do the same thing.
hobgoblin
Talk about bending over backwards to show ultra-sensitivity, this lot refused to stand for the judge (as is normal procedure in the UK) when he came in, so rather than find them in contempt of court (as anyone else would be) court procedure was altered to suit them (apparantly they only stand up for Allah).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics…extremists.html
Donnie Darko
The funny thing is their despicable behavior would actually be considered legally protected speech in the US. I'm OK with that, as I want my crazy zealots waving their flags high where I can see them. In fact I would personally thank those 5 men for making the profiling job of airport security agents easier. I bet none of those guys are getting on a plane without a very aggressive screening any time soon.

That is absolutely xit-for-brains that the UK judge is allowing the court procedure to be altered though. The Brits really are too polite. Oh dearie me, let's not offend those offensive people by daring to ask them to obey the laws of the land they chose to live in.
Kirk
I like profiling, saves time.
A no brainer would be to profile those Islamic militants whose fathers call the CIA and say hey;
I think my son may be a problem.
hobgoblin
It would help if the CIA would actually share such information they receive with the appropriate bodies. If they won't even share vital information with other US agencies (let alone the security sevices of their allies), then how are we expected to cooperate internationally to combat a worldwide terrorist threat?
Donnie Darko
Actually it appears those in charge of anti-terrorism efforts had access to the information that could have been used to stop Admutullab, and it was shared among agencies, but nobody did anything about it and dots were not connected. In my non-expert opinion, it appears the people who put people on no-fly lists simply did not do their job, as it is their job to connect the dots.

Admutullab was on the TIDE (Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment) list, and it amazes me that anybody on that list would not be first be placed on a watch list and secondly treated with the utmost scrutiny whether traveling or not. I think people were just plain lazy.
G&C
Like real Americans.
hobgoblin
Apparantly there's now just been another 'security incident' at Heathrow airpor. Looks like someone had to be jumped on by security staff on a plane bound for Dubai as it was on the runeway ready for takeoff. Apparenly he was a white guy.
Donnie Darko
Honkeys can stir shit up too.
hobgoblin
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Jan 9 2010, 05:14 AM) *

Honkeys can stir shit up too.


Yeah, why should Asians have all the fun? Equal opportunities and all that.

Three white, British guys (aged 58, 48 and 36) have been arrested. It seems they had been drinking and were overheard making some threatening comments about the plane. Probably just drunken idiots, but as a result they caused a major security alert at Heathrow, huge amounts of police resources, the flight being cancelled, passengers interviewed by police, and all the passengers having to spend the night in a hotel. I hope they throw the book at them.
Donnie Darko
Sounds like the genius who purposefully walked the wrong way through the security checkpoint at Newark while a guard wasn't looking.
Tibro
Here's what's being reported as some ideas from security experts to try and stay one step ahead of the bad guys.
eam5171
My gf's sister put some goods in a cigar tube in her…(ahem, you know what I mean) and made it through all securities. We had a good time on vacation
hobgoblin
QUOTE(eam5171 @ Jan 10 2010, 06:50 AM) *

My gf's sister put some goods in a cigar tube in her…(ahem, you know what I mean) and made it through all securities. We had a good time on vacation


Oh, wow, you're so cool and hard, we're all very impressed….Idiot!
Screwtape
Where would a discussion on homeland security be without the gentle touch?
Donnie Darko
Better to be a drug mule than a bomb mule.
Donnie Darko
Here's what Oxy was talking about. Makes a hell of a lot of sense to me:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/11/yeff…rael/index.html
Patlow
Thanks for that.
Tibro
QUOTE
While many experts agree the United States could adopt some Israeli methods, few believe the overall model would work here, in part because of the sheer number of U.S. airports - more than 400, versus half a dozen in Israel.

Also, the painstaking searches and interrogations would create delays that could bring U.S. air traffic to a standstill. And many Americans would find the often intrusive and intimidating Israeli approach repugnant.


Not sure why Americans in particular would find an effective security system repugnant, or at least any more repugnant than the alternative. The scaling up problem is a valid point though. Especially since the 400 American airports don't do anything about a would-be terrorist flying into Detroit from the Netherlands.
hobgoblin
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Jan 11 2010, 08:22 PM) *

Here's what Oxy was talking about. Makes a hell of a lot of sense to me:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/11/yeff…rael/index.html


Good idea, but Israel is a small country with a limited number of airports and relatively small numbers of passengers going in and out. How feasable would this be in countries like the US or even the UK with their large numbers of passengers travelling to and through major international airports?

Its bad enough getting through Heathrow now. If they were to interview every passenger, you'd have to get there 2 days before your flight to wait for your turn to be interviewed, and where would you put all the people while they waited? There's no space as it is.
hobgoblin
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Jan 11 2010, 08:22 PM) *

Here's what Oxy was talking about. Makes a hell of a lot of sense to me:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/11/yeff…rael/index.html


Good idea, but Israel is a small country with a limited number of airports and relatively small numbers of passengers going in and out. How feasable would this be in countries like the US or even the UK with their large numbers of passengers travelling to and through major international airports?

Its bad enough getting through Heathrow now. If they were to interview every passenger, you'd have to get there 2 days before your flight to wait for your turn to be interviewed, and where would you put all the people while they waited? There's no space as it is.
Screwtape
I'm all for body scanners, but only if they'll make stickers and magnets out of the images that you can buy… kinda like a ride at Disney.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(hobgoblin @ Jan 11 2010, 05:31 PM) *

Good idea, but Israel is a small country with a limited number of airports and relatively small numbers of passengers going in and out. How feasable would this be in countries like the US or even the UK with their large numbers of passengers travelling to and through major international airports?


I bet if we got rid of stupid shoe removal and random pointless lengthy searches and replaced them El Al's intelligent interview approach, it wouldn't result in much more time at the airport. It would of course cost more, because we'd have to get more screeners and train them well. But because we also have a lot more airlines and airports than Israel, that would spread the cost around as much as it would increase the cost, so it might work out. I like the guy's idea of trying it out at one big airport and see what happens.
Wild Bill Turkey
Yeah, let's try it out at Logan for a week, and if nobody hijacks a plane that week, we'll know it's working.
hobgoblin
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Jan 12 2010, 03:34 AM) *
I like the guy's idea of trying it out at one big airport and see what happens.


Trouble with a trial like that is how do you know that its being effective? Its not as if you can judge it by the amount of terrorists caught, or lack of planes being suicide bombed. The only real thing you could judge it on by trialing it is the degree of inconvenience to passengers and the time taken to carry it out, which isn't the main concern really.

I do think our governments need to get over their illogical objections to profiling. People are in danger of being blown to bits, lets stop this pretence that all types of people are as likely to be as innocent or guilty as others, and at least target our resources where they will be most likely to be effective.
Wild Bill Turkey
Way to expand my point into a lot more words.
And I agree about profiling.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2018 Invision Power Services, Inc.