Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Domestic terrorism strikes Austin
The Fée Verte Absinthe Forum - The Oldest, Largest, Most Authoritative Absinthe Forum. > The Monkey Hole > The Newgate Calendar
eric
It appears that a government hating wacko flew a plane into an IRS building this morning.
He left this suicide note. http://embeddedart.com/
Pretty scary stuff.
absinthist
Has he achieved his promises?

QUOTE
AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Police in Austin, Texas, say the crash of a
small plane into a building that houses the Internal Revenue
Service is an isolated incident and "there is no cause for
concern" about terrorism.
U.S. law enforcement officials say they are investigating
whether the crash was an intentional act by the pilot that was
aimed at the IRS. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the
investigation is continuing.
Austin fire officials says one person who was scheduled to be at
work Thursday is still unaccounted for, and two people were taken
to a hospital. Their conditions and identities were not known.
FAA spokesman Lynn Lunsford says the pilot didn't file a flight
plan. He didn't identify the pilot, and police say they had no
information about the pilot.


Provenance
Kirk
Apparently the FBI think his words can't stand the light of day.
Kirk
I just read his "Pilot's Manifesto", he's a liar and a fool.
It starts out with a universal complaint:
Taxes. Throws in "big government" and then spirals in to lying about how long he worked on his "manifesto" and classic paranoid obsessive rant.
I wish he had killed himself in a bathtub somewhere.
OCvertDe
…with vodka and razorblades.
Kirk
Used razorblades and
it would be a waste of vodka.
Tibro
A person feeling the despair of being at the end of his rope needs help. (You can debate whether he deserves it, but he needs it.) Allowing that kind of hopelessness to result in homicidal action is an indisputable indication that a failure has occurred. Individuals fail. Happens all the time. Collectives fail. Happens all the time. But they're not all accompanied by calculated, murderous rages.

Joe Stack was obviously filled with feelings of spite and vengeance leveled at the IRS. His feelings must have been more extreme than most, but Kirk thinks, at some level, it's a universal complaint. His murderous actions have gained him some sort of platform. Is that a success? Is that why the FBI moved to try and censor his writings?

I don't know, won't pretend to. I will say that I believe murder to be reprehensible (if sometimes justifiable). I also believe his attack was to some extent an act of terrorism. I imagine he hoped that IRS agents would be moved to alter their behavior when dealing with future filing or collection problems. He didn't target an individual he had a beef with, he targeted an institution. In a personal way to make a political statement.

Maybe he was crazy. Maybe not. Certainly he was criminal. And desperate. Unquestionably there was a tragic failure in his ability to find help to head off this act. Feelings of desperation can send one over the edge to examine possibilities that are usually negated as "unthinkable" in calmer circumstances.
Kirk
It's pretty obvious he was a sick man, he was a foolish man. I'd feel sorry for him except that suicide is a selfish act and murder a careless and destructive one. Near the end of his rant he speaks about getting professional help, he turned to the wrong profession, instead of men in suits he should have sought men in white.
He was revolting.
Those guys came by my work shop right before Y2K and tried to talk me into joining a revolt, I don't know why these types show up on my doorstep. They said there was going to be a months long power black out, nation wide and that the government would use that to justify marshal law and the new world order. I laughed right in their face. Then politely explained to them that if I have no electricity I will not be paying the power company and that the power company would never let that happen and that was the true new world order; consumption, we are slaves to consumption and all the power brokers want us to make lots of money and consume lots of stuff. I told them I took Y2K seriously, I was keeping an extra loaf of bread and a gallon of milk, in case the crazy people bought it all off the shelves the night before, like they do when it's calling for snow. My mother in law wanted to know if we thought she should stock in a years worth of food, I recommended she stock a weeks worth.
I laughed my ass off at parts of the P manifesto too.
The lunatic fringe can fuck off now. These people that talked to me had given up their citizenship and become foreign nationals with diplomatic immunity. They stopped paying income tax and thought they had a loophole.
I would imagine most of them are in jail or dealing with huge problems right now.
People like that give crazy a bad name. We need a national suicide day, if you want to kill yourself, do it on that day, all funeral expenses paid by the state, but do it in your basement, alone.
If I join a revolt, the membership will have to be upwards of 200 million people before I sign on.
I glanced over his tax complaint, isn't that section dealing with who will pay or collect the tax? I mean, it seemed to be dealing with how the tax will be paid, not if. A contractor can get paid by cash or check, no taxes taken out, he still is responsible for his own income tax. In the end, after all the write offs and shelters, if you have income, you pay tax.
So, here is the worlds smallest record player, playing "My Heart Bleeds For You" : .
Tibro
Let me just say I've known kind, generous, loving, compassionate individuals that have made attempts on their own lives. I do not believe for a moment, knowing them as I did, that their acts were motivated by selfishness. They needed help and couldn't find the way out of their despair to figure out a real way to connect with it. The help that was always as close as the air they breathed. In the moment of their deepest desperation there was a moment of failure. Nothing selfish about it at that moment.

I don't know who Joe Stack was. I feel certain he was desperate, his reason obscured by the clouds of desperation. I suppose losing sight of reason is lunacy. But there's a difference between those how choose to ignore reason and those who lose sight of reason in spite of themselves.

I don't who he was. Other than a criminal. Ultimately. I don't know whose failure lead him to this despicable act. But I'm sure that failure was swirling all around. A tempest. A veritable tempest.
scuto
QUOTE(Tibro @ Feb 19 2010, 02:50 PM) *

Let me just say I've known kind, generous, loving, compassionate individuals that have made attempts on their own lives. I do not believe for a moment, knowing them as I did, that their acts were motivated by selfishness. They needed help and couldn't find the way out of their despair to figure out a real way to connect with it. The help that was always as close as the air they breathed. In the moment of their deepest desperation there was a moment of failure. Nothing selfish about it at that moment.

The selfishness of a person with depression is distinct, IMO, from that which we see from, say, Wall Street types.

A college friend once put the selfishness of depression into words which I can't improve on in any fashion: "I am the piece of shit the world revolves around." I should make clear that this selfishness comes from the illness.

Paradoxically, the selfishness of depression does not include putting one's well-being first, only one's self-contempt; they could be the most kind, generous, loving, compassionate individuals to everyone except themselves. Depression gets in the way of someone first understanding and then learning how to "put the oxygen mask on yourself before helping the person next to you."
Jaded Prole
Sometimes depression is a rational reaction to reality, as can be suicide.

Killing others in the process is criminal except in the rarest of occasions.
Tibro
Anybody who dares to say that gawd never gives a person a bigger burden than they can manage isn't living in the real world.
Kirk
Either way, in the end, it's all gone.
OCvertDe
Truer words may have never been spoken.
The question that remains when it's all gone, however, is
do the ends justify the means?
Tibro
The end is void, justified by nothing. For some this is the goal.
OCvertDe
As long as they don't take the rest of us with them, I'm not particularly apposed to that.
Kirk
My solution to suicide is to think about the effect it will have on other people. Don't cause other people any pain. If you can stick it out, do.
OCvertDe
From my perspective on the outside looking in at, say, clinical depression, I'm not under the impression that thinking much about other people at all is even possible after a certain point… and suicide doesn't follow very far behind that.
Tibro
The question of whether his was a terrorist act or not has been taken up in the media.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100220/ap_on_…ash_terrorism_2

QUOTE
When a man fueled by rage against the U.S. government and its tax code crashes his airplane into a building housing offices of the Internal Revenue Service, is it a criminal act or an act of terrorism?


How is it that terrorism is being contrasted with a criminal act? Undoubtedly what he did was criminal. The only question I see might be whether his guilt is mitigated by a state of insanity as allowed by US law. Terrorism and murder are both criminal acts. A plea of insanity by a defendant is a different issue than criminal charges brought by the state though.
Kirk
That's what happens when spin doctors play with the language. Before you know it, up is down.
Kirk
[/quote] I'm not under the impression that thinking much about other people at all is even possible after a certain point…[quote]



I'm just speaking from experience. I've been depressed my entire life, punctuated by manic episodes. I've never seen a doctor for it or taken the proper medication. Maybe it was curiosity, maybe it was selfishness, but I've pressed the cold steel to my temple before. I think it was compassion for the people who might find me that stayed my hand. Even when those people were just my landlord.
Pathological and depressed aren't the same thing, if you don't have any compassion or empathy, you are antisocial, if you are antisocial, go ahead and pull the trigger.
Jaded Prole
QUOTE
My solution to suicide is to think about the effect it will have on other people. Don't cause other people any pain. If you can stick it out, do.


That's the bottom line in my book.
OCvertDe
Unfortunately, the fine print below that bottom line is that there is a level of depression which that logic is incapable of penetrating.
G&C
This is depressing.
Tibro
Yes, but it need not be criminally so.
Kirk
If you are not depressed and angry, at least some of the time, about what is going on around you, something is wrong. People with extreme levels of both can be a catalyst for change, or it can go the other way.
I do have feelings for both results.
Tibro
I think this guy had a fairly flaccid pen. The pen is a mighty weapon and can effect change on grand scales.

Taking lives is a whole 'nother kettle. Effective? Maybe too often. But mostly because it steps over moral boundaries. That's when folks are apt to get really upset.

Laws generally enforce the accepted morality of a society. But they do get out of whack - codified laws and personal morality. And that seems to goad people to resort to terrorist acts to point out the discrepancies, the failures of society to uphold what the individuals feel to be moral behavior.

Kind of ironic. Or not™.
scuto
QUOTE(Jaded Prole @ Feb 20 2010, 04:30 PM) *

Sometimes depression is a rational reaction to reality, as can be suicide.

I couldn't disagree more. While not irrational, they're non-rational, and very rationalized.

QUOTE(Tibro @ Feb 20 2010, 05:34 PM) *

Anybody who dares to say that gawd never gives a person a bigger burden than they can manage isn't living in the real world.

Truth.

QUOTE(Kirk @ Feb 20 2010, 09:20 PM) *

My solution to suicide is to think about the effect it will have on other people. Don't cause other people any pain. If you can stick it out, do.

This can, in fact, be what prevents someone from offing themselves. Problem is, this also speaks to a severe lack of self-worth, and its this lack of self-worth which allows depression to run rampant. It's worth the battle back into self-regard and self-esteem to be able to value oneself.

QUOTE(OCvertDe @ Feb 20 2010, 09:28 PM) *

From my perspective on the outside looking in at, say, clinical depression, I'm not under the impression that thinking much about other people at all is even possible after a certain point… and suicide doesn't follow very far behind that.

For severe cases, most definitely.

QUOTE(Kirk @ Feb 21 2010, 02:17 PM) *

If you are not depressed and angry, at least some of the time, about what is going on around you, something is wrong. People with extreme levels of both can be a catalyst for change, or it can go the other way.
I do have feelings for both results.

Complaisance, as you imply, is certainly an indicator of something being wrong. I would argue complaisance can also be an indicator of depression the illness, as opposed to "depressed and angry." I would set feeling depressed and angry apart from having depression because healthy people can feel depressed and angry and it doesn't mean they're mentally ill.



Shit, I have no levity to bring. At the moment. A band I like had one guy named "Mr. Clinical Depression," but I seriously doubt y'all would be into Arab on Radar.
Donnie Darko
The man was no more a terrorist than the biology teacher in Alabama who gunned down her colleagues was a terrorist, and was no more a terrorist than the guy at Ft. Hood, and no more a terrorist than Osama Bin Laden. There is no such thing as a "terrorist". It's a relatively empty media/government term bandied about to either manufacture consent or make you watch more news. The term in my opinion serves the enemy more than it serves us. These people are actually all just murderers, which is as terrorizing as it gets. It just so happens that some of them are much more influential than others.

All of them in my opinion have psychiatric issues/chemical imbalances and possibly life histories which predispose them to such behavior. I think it's the result of some disastrous combination of seeing the world in very delineated black & white terms combined with a failure of inhibition. Of course there is no easy way to pick these people out of a crowd. And even when you encounter such people, in times when you try to help them they just isolate themselves more, making it even harder to reach them. Thankfully the guy didn't do more damage. Maybe therapy and medication would have helped, maybe he would have done it anyway.

As for Prol's comment, I think suicide and depression seem rational reactions to the person experiencing those feelings, but are not themselves rational. Given that not many holocaust survivors have turned to murder or suicide, this guy has no excuse.

This guy could be a product of being too plugged into media though. The news from all angles is generally negative and alarmist, and I think people who are predisposed to paranoia are especially vulnerable to hysterical reactions to such drivel. My advice to anyone who is feeling like the world is going to shit would be to stop reading newspapers and watching TV news and to stop reading news/political websites/internet forums for a few weeks and see if you still feel like the world is so awful. If you do then you need medication and talk therapy.
Tibro
Not to nit-pick, but …

QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Feb 22 2010, 05:35 AM) *

Given that not many holocaust survivors have turned to murder or suicide,


Murders get attention but suicides generally don't. What's your source for this assertion? Or what's your definition of "not many"? When it's a family member one is a lot.
scuto
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Feb 21 2010, 11:35 PM) *

As for Prol's comment, I think suicide and depression seem rational reactions to the person experiencing those feelings, but are not themselves rational.

Good point, and important to note.
Provenance
The great writer Primo Levi died more than 40 years after his liberation from Auschwitz. It is generally thought, though it is far from certain, that his death was a suicide. It's best not to judge the impact of someone else's experiences.
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Tibro @ Feb 21 2010, 11:57 PM) *

Not to nit-pick, but …

QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Feb 22 2010, 05:35 AM) *

Given that not many holocaust survivors have turned to murder or suicide,


Murders get attention but suicides generally don't. What's your source for this assertion? Or what's your definition of "not many"? When it's a family member one is a lot.


That's true, my assertion is merely based on all the survivors I've met and friends' grandparents who were survivors, which is a tiny fraction of the total. I think that people who are driven to suicide/murder have something else going on though besides a single traumatic experience. The bad experience may provide the impetus, but a bad experience is not an explanation without being accompanied by other factors.

Of course I realize that I am looking at it rationally, whereas a person who feels justified in murder/suicide probably has a very different definition of "rational" than I do. The best we can do is push such people, if identified, whenever possible into therapy, and if the act is carried out anyway, we should judge the act as heinous, but refrain from dismissing the person as merely a crazy asshole.
Tibro
Foremost, I'm not ready to call the circumstances endured by a survivor of the holocaust "a single traumatic experience." I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that those people, as a whole big classified generalization, have been closer to the depths of hell than anyone here reading my words. I imagine it wasn't a mere event for those people. It was a prolonged exercise in enduring a brutal lifestyle. A reality that I'm sure none of them would chose to revisit. A tangible lesson in just how bad it can get as a human and between humans. I'm sure there were also lessons of how deep individual goodness and compassion can run as well, but on nowhere near the scale that the negatives were experienced.

QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Feb 22 2010, 11:37 PM) *

a person who … has a very different definition of "rational" than I do.


Informed by such extreme experiences it's probably not unreasonable to surmise that many survivors in their subsequent lives chose suicide over even the remote possibility of seeing that bleak face of humanity again. Well, at least that seems like a rational hypothesis to me. (I don't even want to go into survivor's guilt, I suspect it's easier to poke holes in the "rationality" of such feelings.) How far would one let a downward spiral of deteriorating circumstances continue? Does surviving hell once demonstrate that one can do it again? Or does one know that they will never let that be an option again? Does it harden one against the possibilities of making certain choices, options deemed immoral and impossible to travel down? How do our experiences inform our rational decision making processes?

But, really, what is a rational choice? Or a rational position to base our choices on? We're not Vulcans, pure logical argumentation is not a rational foundation for human action. The emotional component of our lives is fully bound up with our processing who we are and what we're doing here, our reason as mental activity and our reasons derived from that activity for living and how we act in the circumstances we find ourselves.

Is what is "rational" thought the dominant way of reasoning things out? The most effective? Where do we come by a normative evaluation of what's rational? Is it really possible, or are we just kidding ourselves? A way to build consensus and co-exist without spiking the cognitive dissonance graph at every step?

When I look around and take stock of what I see, then, yes, I do think that suicide can be a rational choice. Not always and not in every case where it occurs, nor am I ready to step in and be the final arbiter in such cases. I can tell you though that I do support assisted dying. I do think it's rational for terminal patients to speed their demise before the possibilities of a predicted decay are realized (or not™). There's no sure things in this life - except death and taxes (just to keep strictly on topic).

One thing I'm reasonably assured of is that my rationality is frequently, and thus as a whole, flawed. I'm sure no one can or would with to argue with me about that.


Kirk
Take it one day at a time T.
I agree with assisted suicide, at least that way you get a second opinion.
I'm thinking Hunter T probably made a rational choice but I miss him.
scuto
Yeah, hearing HST shot himself messed me up, even though it "made sense" on some level. Selfish prick. evill.gif

QUOTE(Tibro @ Feb 23 2010, 03:05 AM) *

I do think it's rational for terminal patients to speed their demise before the possibilities of a predicted decay are realized (or not™). There's no sure things in this life - except death and taxes (just to keep strictly on topic).

We're all terminal. Not all of us are terminally ill, nor do I see those with mental illness as terminally ill even though they (via their illness) might. I feel Kevorkian is a hero for helping people with their choices when presented with the facts.
offtopic2.gif Has anyone heard his music or seen his art? Is it any good at all?
Tibro
Um, excuse me, I think I'm going to adjust my meds now.
Provenance
I prefer to adjust other people's meds.
Tibro
Yes, I know. I for one welcome your interventions.

As for other people's meds, I usually just sample them when I can. You know, just to see if there's something there I might make use of.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2018 Invision Power Services, Inc.