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The Fée Verte Absinthe Forum - The Oldest, Largest, Most Authoritative Absinthe Forum. > Absinthe & Absinthiana > General Absinthe Discussion
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EdouardPerneau
I looking for those ( seed, dried herbs) :

artemisia glacidis

artemisia rupestris ( rock wormwood)

EdouardPerneau



SOLD OUT. PLEASE CHECK BACK IN SPRING 2010
Tibro
So contact him and put dibs in for harvest time.
EdouardPerneau
already done so let's find rupestris :)
EdouardPerneau
I already knows kirk's store but I didn't remember that it was glacidis I tought that it was artemisia genepi
Kirk
Gacialis is an artemisia sub species genepi.
Kirk
I meant "glacialis"
absinthist
This is friend's genepi. Should it not be larger by now? Is it gonna die?

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And, apart from ornamental, is Artemisia stelleriana of any decent use? I might get some.
R3al Caravano
Sorry, dude, 'taint genepi. See the link above.
absinthist
It is wrong labelled, nevertheless, will it live or not?
R3al Caravano
Yellow squash, zucchini and pumpkins all share the same genus and species (cucurbita pepo), there just happens to be a couple of distinctions below species.
absinthist
QUOTE(absinthist @ Jun 28 2010, 04:03 AM) *

will it live or not?

Kirk
No reason for it not to.
The genepi I've been growing for years was sold to me as Glacialis. I've grown 3 other genepi types and none of them smelled or tasted as nice as what I call Glacialis, in fact the others smell like cardboard. The confusing thing is, my favorite genepi was sold to me as glacialis but it looks like the picture you posted and called Rupestris.
absinthist
Thanks, you are the man!

What advice would you give my friend regarding its cultivation?

Yes, the realm of Artemisia is one hell of chaos. My rupestris is growing fine, but does not smell like the glacialis I have got from you, which smells divinely great, though.
R3al Caravano
I guess, I was wrong, but questions are good, even if they are not posed as questions.
R3al Caravano
Someone told me that a wasp could sting twice, and I was not sure until the blood rolled out of my pinky. I really had to annoy the crap out of this wasp to get that drip of blood.
Kirk
Cultivate like any other herb, keep the starts damp but not wet, set out in spring or fall in a sunny location.
If you try to set them out in the summer provide a little shade for awhile and keep them watered.
What is the herb? The first shoots don't really look like an artemisia.
absinthist
It was sold as Artemisia genipi, we shall see what comes out when bigger.

I agree it might turn out to be something else since the factual genipi looks so:

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Tibro
Genipi or genepi? Remember, you must not only read carefully but also write carefully. The difference may seem small but loom large.
absinthist
Genipi.

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FYI,

Achillea nana=genepi noir

Artemisia rupestris=genepi blanc

Artemisia glacialis=genepi vrai

http://luirig.altervista.org/schedeit2/ae/…isia_genipi.htm

http://luirig.altervista.org/schedeit2/ae/…a_glacialis.htm

QUOTE
Artemisia genipì , also known as black Genepì, is a hairy perennial plant, of a silky grey colour, 5- 20 cm high, with aromatic characteristics in all its parts, in particular in its seeds. Flowering takes place from July to September. Its most important characteristic is the close disposition of the various heads on the flower stalk, which give the inflorescence a spike-like aspect.


http://www.ethnobiomed.com/content/5/1/32/figure/F5

http://www.ethnobiomed.com/content/5/1/32/figure/F6

I write carefully and I do not must or even have to do anything.

QUOTE
The term genepì/génépì (synonyms: génepi, génipi) is applied in the Western Alps (in Occitan, Franco-Provencal, and also in French and Italian too) to diverse species of locally growing Alpine wormwood (esp. Artemisia genipi, A. glacialis, A. umbelliformis). This term has probably Savoyard origins, and is derived from the Latin Dianae spicum(épi de Diane in French, Diana's ear in English) [41].

The ethnobotany of genepì in the Western Alps has never been recorded specifically or systematically, although scattered notes have occurred in Alpine ethnobotanical studies over the last few decades (Table 2). From these brief ethnographic reports we can conclude that genepí was originally used for preparing herbal teas, and shepherds in the mountainous areas frequently used to decoct the aerial parts in milk and butter instead of water.

Following the introduction of wine and grappa (purchased from farmers living in the hills and on the plains), the herb probably was macerated in alcohol as its use as a liqueur began to appear over a century ago in different gastronomic and commodity treatises in France and Italy[42-45].

This seems to concur with what has been hypothesized in other Italian Alpine regions regarding herbal macerates in grappa [46], which they were considered sometimes traditional"medicinal" preparations. Preparation of liqueurs began to be relevant especially in the 1960's, when Italy began to enjoy better economic conditions which enabled isolated rural communities to have at their disposal larger amounts of grappa and/or industrial alcohol.

This shift is quite interesting since it demonstrates, not only the overlapping between food and medicine, but
also how the preponderant role of one of the two domains can be the result of dynamic historical, social,
and economic changes. Nowadays, A. umbelliformis is widely cultivated in the Western Alps to supply the local distilleries that produce the alcoholic macerate of genepì, which widely traded all over the world.

Because of this economic interest, local institutions in Piedmont are very active in putting in place
measures for improving the quality and yield of cultivated Alpine wormwood [47].

All our informants, however, were very keen to underline the difference in taste between the industrial genepì (produced from the aerial parts of A. umbelliformis only - the only Artemisia species of the three that has been and can be cultivated with substantial agronomic results) and the home-made liqueur (which generally always contain A.genipi or sometimes a mix of A. genipi and A. glacialis). According to locals in the upper Varaita valley, the specific occurrence in the recipe of A. genepì (locally defined as the "male genepì") is crucial for achieving a superb tasting alcoholic beverage.


Published: 6 November 2009
Journal of Ethnobiology and Ethnomedicine 2009, 5:32
Grim
QUOTE
I write carefully and I do not must or even have to do anything.

You betcha.

QUOTE
L'Absinthe suisse, si supérieure pour l'arome à l'absinthe ordinaire, est préparée avec le Génipi et colorée en vert par l'infusion alcoolique d'anis ou d'indigo.

Rock solid sources, I must say.
absinthist
One sentence does not spoil the linguistic etymological derivations regarding the herb species.

You are quoting many a book where one thing is au courant, the others, as of nowadays, shall be considered phantasies. And there is an e-mail awaiting you, so please take care of it instead.
Kirk
I must say, after all the time I have devoted to the study of various species of different herbs, only small amounts of what has been said here has added to my limited knowledge of the herbs I am intimately familiar with. Nothing you have said Grim, has added to my organically obtained base of knowledge of said herbs, likewise, nothing Tits has said has distracted from said knowledge.
So, the conversation is stimulating but I must say, (in the end) it's not what you say, it's the way you say it.
absinthist
Indeed!™

Does your glacialis when in flowers looks like my rupestris in flowers now (pic is below) or does your glacialis looks so http://luirig.altervista.org/schedeit2/ae/…a_glacialis.htm or so: http://www.stridvall.se/flowers/gallery/Asteraceae_1/367_35 as these two are claimed to be glacialis.

?

My rupestris in flowers:

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For the sake of broadening our common knowledge it would be good to know which is which, despite so many contradictions and the partaking distractors bringing nothing anew but blurring the image.
absinthist
there is more regarding rupestris and genepi:

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and much, much more, but not of much substance to the very thread…
R3al Caravano
None, of the above looks like what Kirk sells, but what he sells tastes and smells great and if it had a rhythm you could dance to it. In other words if the genus and species was "That plant" it is still good.
absinthist
As long as rupestris is genepi, too, I am of impression Kirk's genepi is ipso facto rupestris, what makes it a much more valuable herb than glacialis as of nowadays.
R3al Caravano
Ipso facto, none of are old enough to have been there with the biologist that named a few of these plant, so if they did not record them very well, the factual name becomes one of popular opinion
R3al Caravano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O07ybDec1Gk
absinthist
Show the ones you have been given by Kirk and we shall compare.
G&C


Click to view attachment
R3al Caravano
……….
My Webpage
absinthist
The leaves look like my rupestris. So, Kirk has rupestris-the rarest absinthe herb no longer cultivated in Switzerland. Chapeaux bas!
R3al Caravano
Slap a ruler next to it. We don't to compare apples to oranges.
absinthist
18cm. According to the seller, it shall reach 70.
R3al Caravano
No dude, the actual size of the leaves, the shape of the stems.
R3al Caravano
That tape measure was not there for my vanity.
absinthist
QUOTE(R3al Caravano @ Jun 29 2010, 12:37 PM) *

No dude, the actual size of the leaves, the shape of the stems.

http://www.feeverte.net/forum/index.php?s=…st&p=180505
Kirk
Here is the genepi that I am growing:
R3al Caravano
Given your sources are correct, which I don't feel tracking down. You have only proven what it isn't and not what it is.
absinthist
Nothing it seems what it used to have been. Or not™. A definite "not".
Artemis
The plant in post 19 looks like Artemisia mutellina. The blackish buds should open out into yellow flowers if it is.

There are at least three plants known in the Alps as genepi, and they are called various things from valley to valley, but in general:
A. glacialis - "true genepi" or "white genepi"
A. spicata - "black" or "male" genepi
A. mutellina - "yellow" or "female" genepi

All of them are called genepi and all of them are used in liquor. Glacialis is known to be more fragrant than the others and is more sought after for that reason.

The plant in post 25 looks like Artemisia rupestris. It isn't an alpine plant like the others, as it extends to the Ural mountains and the Yukon. I haven't seen it in any modern discussion as being considered genepi like the others.

In the other pictures, it's hard for me to judge because there are no stalks or buds or flowers.
Tibro
I would venture to add Artemisia umbelliformis to this unruly mix. I have seen it called Alps or Alpine wormwood in English and what I interpret to mean "white" genepi in another language.

I don't claim any definitive knowledge about any of this (or these) and my intent is not to add to the confusion, but hopefully to submit to an authority that will provide some measure of greater clarity.

Are the color attributions in the common names attributable to anything identifiable? Artemis, you pointedly referred to the blackish buds on the mutellina species which you then reference as "yellow" genepi. Perchance the colors might reference the appearance of the roots? Or just a folk association without a visible indicator?
absinthist
IPB Image

http://www.florealpes.com/comparaison.php?…6670ef96757b2fc

great comparison. On rupestris:

QUOTE
Armoise des rochers. Artemisia rupestris.

Celte plante, connue des habijans des Alpes sous le nom de
genipi blanc on de genipi, est toute couverte d'un duvet fin ,
couché, soyeux et blanchâtre; sa racine, qui est noirâtre et
presque ligneuse, pousse plusieurs tiges hautes de 1-2 décim. ;
les feuilles radicales sont pétiolées, divisées en trois ou cinq
lobes découpés eux-mêmes en deux ou trois lanières droites,
linéaires et disposées comme les doigts de la main ; celles de la
tige sont presque sessiles et n'ont que trois ou quatre lanières
à leur sommet : les fleurs naissent solitaires aux aisselles de ia
plupart des feuilles, portées sur des pédicelles de longueur trèsvariable;
lorsqu'ils sont très-courts, les fleurs semblent disposées
en épi, et quand ils s'alongent, .ils forment une espèce de
corimbe irrégulier; ces fleurs diffèrent de celles de l'armoise
des glaciers, parce qu'elles sont plus ovoïdes et ne renferment
que douze à quatorze fleurons , et de celles de l'armoise en épi,
parce que leur réceptacle est garni de poils. 3e . Cette plante
est assez abondante sur les rochers des hautes Alpes , dans les
vallées découvertes; en Dauphiné, en Provence, en Piémont,


on glacialis:

QUOTE
Armoise des glaciers. Artemisia glacialis.

Ses tiges s'élèvent rarement au-delà de 2 décimètres; ses
feuilles sont soyeuses et blanchâtres; les radicales sont portées
sur des pétioles assez longs , et sont découpées en deux ou trois
lanières trifurquées qui les fontparoître palmées ; les feuilles de
la tige sont en petit nombre et moins découpées; les fleurs sont
jaunes , assez grandes , presque sessiles et en bouquet serré aux extrémités
des tiges ; elles renferment de trente à quarante fleurons
placés sur un réceptacle velu. Celle planle est la plus rare de
celles auxquelles 1еб montagnards donnent le nom de genipi ;
elle ne se trouve que sur les hautes sommités des Alpes , auprès
des glaciers ; en Savoie, en Piémont et en Dauphiné.


Hopefully the French speakers will find the differences and note them in a table so for future we know.
absinthist
QUOTE(Artemis @ Jun 29 2010, 07:55 PM) *

Glacialis is known to be more fragrant than the others and is more sought after for that reason.


QUOTE
According to locals in the upper Varaita valley, the specific occurrence in the recipe of A. genepì (locally defined as the "male genepì") is crucial for achieving a superb tasting alcoholic beverage.


Glacialis seems to be 2nd grade, Spicata-genipi 1st grade and as the smallest-the most sought after and the most expensive and muttelina-umbelliformis 3rd grade.

I have had spicata from Stefano-it was very tiny and small, but the fragrance was unbelievable and nothing like glacialis or rupestris; I haven't had the pleasure with muttelina, though/yet.
Artemis
QUOTE
According to locals in the upper Varaita valley, the specific occurrence in the recipe of A. genepì (locally defined as the "male genepì") is crucial for achieving a superb tasting alcoholic beverage.


According to the locals in the Val de Travers, absinthe can't be made anywhere else. The best barbeque can only be had in North Carolina. Just ask them in North Carolina, they'll tell you.

With regard to these plants, what the locals say isn't worth much unless you're trying to replicate their local product, then by all means apprentice yourself to your favorite strega nona.

Unfortunately, what the authorities on plants say, especially in old sources, is often colored by what they heard from the locals, and when plants grow on terrain where two valleys are as separate as the earth is from the moon, with the resulting cultural differences, if they heard the story in only one valley they neglected many other stories, and if they heard it in a dozen valleys, they probably came away confused and maybe just flipped a coin as to what to call a given plant. When I researched this subject (some seven years ago), I came away more confused than when I started. I am not an authority - I just posted some of what I had gleaned back then.

But I've never seen any source other than the one quoted above that says any other Artemisia is generally as desirable or sought after as glacialis. There is probably a reason it is called Genepi Vrai.
absinthist
Arty, it is called, but the foundation is just as that rupestris is called genepi blanc by many sources. For the time being, to me, it looks like there is a theory carved in stone by the French, by Italians and to lesser extent (they hardly have and/or use any of these) by the Swiss. Everyone has their truth, but where is THE truth? Looking at the pics, prints of the herbs, we can differentiate, but do we really?

There was a case on German forum when someone wanted to purchase pontica (Serge, correct me) and got tansy as pontica. Of course, they are heaven and hell, apart from tujon content, but those fucking Alpine wormwoods are so alike… That is the problem.
Grim
What cracks me up, absinthist, is that you spend this much energy bouncing very long-winded posts back and forth with people… when if your goal is to make a better absinthe (obviously, this isn't for a book project) you should do just that. Let your senses and experimentation be your guide and spend less time trying to solidify your presence on the board.

Try these species. Verify their value through your own experience. Then testify to their individual worth after the fact.

But don't pollute the board with bad english and shitty attempts at ™ -ing everything that exists as a part of speech.
absinthist
It is "English", mind you.

I have worked with genepi Kirk has generously bestowed me with and will carry on-some's left still. I have had spicata, so genipi as well. I might receive some maritima soon.

That thread is new, Ed has started it if you look up closer. There was a thread at the old forum on genepy likker and such but apart from the general dislike of the herb by the likes of Ted or Don Walsh nothing new had been brought, if Arty's contribution was a propos.

And I f I were you I would spend more time answering my mails if you looked at them instead of wasting your and my time in that thread without any substantial views those not familiar with the subject would like to hear, dontcha think, my friend?
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