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The Fée Verte Absinthe Forum - The Oldest, Largest, Most Authoritative Absinthe Forum. > Absinthe & Absinthiana > General Absinthe Discussion
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frenchman
I am stubborn,
I think absinthe is still a health risk,
that France has not allowed without valid reasons in 1915.

for proof, I've found (thanks internet Gallica) from the ancient texts speak of the wormwood plant and the drink absinthe, well before the leagues cons alcohol.

First text from 1824 :
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3118…bier.f23.langFR
In this page, is clearly written that absinthe is a small dose drug and a poison at high doses.
He describes the symptoms found in studies later, 50 years later… strange, no ?
And the writer seems to not know the "Absinthe drink"

Later in 1868, this writer wrote a small text about "Absinthe drink".
He wrote that it seems that there are specific symptoms for alcoholics Absinthe drinkers.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5823…1868.f25.langFR

17 years later, in 1885, third edition revised :
He wrote a long text now, to explain that they are now certain that the alcohol in absinthe has very specific sympthomes. This man was not at war against alcohol in 1868, he has no interest in lying
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k7726…the+.f29.langFR

in 1881, this man seems to be in war against alcool, so he can be no objective,
BUT he learn us that France used this drink 30 years before for soldiers waging war in africa,
AND that military doctors have found such problems, a military law that prohibits the use of the 1845 Absinthe in military camps and kitchens….
Law repeated several times (the French respect the laws rarely always!)
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5681…ave.f225.langFR

absinthist
It is interesting that Favre is a plotter to you while these seem to be more credible and the same time anti-absinthe oriented. Gallica gathers all the books, written by authors of various ideology, mind you.
frenchman
More over, it seems that England had bad experience with Absinthe beer before 1824 :
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3118…bier.f24.langFR
It would be interesting to find more information by english writers…. (textes before 1824 !)
absinthist
Artemisias served as the bittering agent instead of hops, which came later on. As a matter of fact, top fermented ales of Belgium, England, etc of the heyday (flavoured with wormwood, mugwort, tansy, coriander or the mixture of herbs known as "gruit") are more of a beer than bottom fermented lagers of the 19th century and later.
frenchman
QUOTE(absinthist @ Jul 16 2010, 02:15 AM) *

Artemisias served as the bittering agent instead of hops, which came later on. As a matter of fact, top fermented ales of Belgium, England, etc of the heyday (flavoured with wormwood, mugwort, tansy, coriander or the mixture of herbs known as "gruit") are more of a beer than bottom fermented lagers of the 19th century and later.


Ok, but can we find written English highlighting problems because of the use of absinthe inside beer making ? (problems for consumers).
sixela
QUOTE(frenchman @ Jul 16 2010, 03:15 AM) *

I am stubborn,


You wouldn't be you if you weren't ;).

QUOTE

I think absinthe is still a health risk,
that France has not allowed without valid reasons in 1915.

It is a major health risk. It contains ethanol, which is the most deadly off all habit-forming psychotropic drugs, even to this day.

But these days it's rather expensive, so it's less of a risk than other high proof spirits.

QUOTE

In this page, is clearly written that absinthe is a small dose drug and a poison at high doses.

No, it's written that wormwood is a poison at high doses. And it is. That's why there's a food standard for thujone levels in beverages.

QUOTE

in 1881, this man seems to be in war against alcool, so he can be no objective,

And why not? Ethanol is a far bigger problem than thujone, so he's perfectly right.
frenchman
QUOTE
QUOTE

I think absinthe is still a health risk,
that France has not allowed without valid reasons in 1915.

It is a major health risk. It contains ethanol, which is the most deadly off all habit-forming psychotropic drugs, even to this day.

But these days it's rather expensive, so it's less of a risk than other high proof spirits.


----> 100% agree, i mean that "Absinthe drink" is bad for health because alcohol, nobody can argue this point,
BUT "Absinthe drink" could be more dangerous that alcohol alone, because this artemisia plant…

QUOTE
QUOTE

In this page, is clearly written that absinthe is a small dose drug and a poison at high doses.

No, it's written that wormwood is a poison at high doses. And it is. That's why there's a food standard for chop.gif levels in beverages.



----> Absinthe was a drug over time, to comply with a dose.
Now, if you go to buy drug inside pharmacy, you can't buy drugs how you like because risk.
If really Absinthe is dangerous after one level dose, food standard will not stop you to drink after this level.
More over, recent analyses on old Absinthe shows that old absinthe are inside present standard, same Absinthes that gave specific symptoms for alcoholics in the past…
There are poisons that accumulate in the body, and which we see the result after 30 or 40 years.
In France we add serious recent problem with asbestos, and we took long time to understand what poison it was.
I will not want that one makes a serious mistake by concealing 100 years of French bad experience in this drink.
frenchman
Is someone could find an english text to explain why England stoped to use Absinthe inside beer ?
Are problemes exposed by this french writer for english consumer around 1820 could be confirmed or denials ?
absinthist
Beers with wormwood were wake me up ales. Herbs for making them were sold in monasteries and and the whole gruit phenomenon was closely connected with the Catholic Church.

Hopped beers were sedative, diminished sexual arousement and were more reserved in their nature, hence the Protestants were in favour of adding hops to the beer and replacing the diabolical, lustful, narcotic, pagan in nature, herbs of the Catholics, who in England were a minority after Henry the VIIIth's schism.

Shabba53
QUOTE
There are poisons that accumulate in the body, and which we see the result after 30 or 40 years.
True, but most of these symptoms weren't reported in people who were in their 60s, right?

QUOTE(frenchman @ Jul 16 2010, 07:44 AM) *
More over, recent analyses on old Absinthe shows that old absinthe are inside present standard, same Absinthes that gave specific symptoms for alcoholics in the past…
Then we should look at current absinthe drinkers to see if they exhibit any of those specific symptoms. Many here have been drinking absinthe for 10+ years. Does anyone here know of someone who has fallen victim to any of those issues?

Also, does anyone here know if any of the 'toxic chemicals' in wormwood are water or fat soluble? That could help to either diminish or buttress the argument for cumulative effect.
Jaded Prole
Apparently the effects of tansy far surpass any of the alleged if not mythical effects of wormwood.
absinthist
Tansy, wormwood, mugwort, sage, mint, nutmeg, calamus, sassafras, (what is missed?) effects are all pile of BS, never proven, never recorded, never felt, all in the realm of myths and urban legends.
frenchman
QUOTE(absinthist @ Jul 16 2010, 05:10 AM) *

Tansy, wormwood, mugwort, sage, mint, nutmeg, calamus, sassafras, (what is missed?) effects are all pile of BS, never proven, never recorded, never felt, all in the realm of myths and urban legends.



How can you write "never proven, never recorded, never felt" about Absinthe.
I just show you that different scientifics french writers, at different periods, met these effects….
Please read or ask someone to translate for you if you can't read the french.

Since how many times we have Absinthe 30ppm on the market ? Perhaps 6 years ?
And how many persons are alcoholic with this beverage, perhaps none. (I hope)
It is too early to see any effects now.

But i see that most of states are breaking old laws about Absinthe, perhaps tomorrow, one company will have idea to add Absinthe in CocaCola or Beer (because the mode) , beverage that we can drink in large quantity without to be alcoholic, and that it will become seriousely dangerous at this time.

I think that in Europ and USA we forget that plant can be a drug, sometimes an insidious poison, sometimes a violent poison.
In France, most of peoples forget that we have a very nice flower able to killed you with only 3grammes (Casque de Jupiter) / Plant certainly used during most of wars during the middle ages, to poison arrows and sharp weapons.

frenchman
QUOTE(Shabba53 @ Jul 16 2010, 04:26 AM) *

QUOTE
There are poisons that accumulate in the body, and which we see the result after 30 or 40 years.
True, but most of these symptoms weren't reported in people who were in their 60s, right?



Perhaps it is only 5 years if you are alcoholic with Absinthe… are you ?
Someone would like to try for us ?
And all bodies do not react the same, some catch a cancer because only one cigarette per day, other bodies have nothing else with 2 packets of cigarettes per days.

Look at the cigarette, it took very very long time for peoples, states, company agrees to say that it is bad for health. Cigarette is in balance between financial gain and what cause damage in the population !
I think that it was same in France for Absinthe in 1850/1915, big profits (by taxes) for french state, but big, too big damage in the population.
It has been same for Opium in China, big profit for England, big, big, too big damage for Chinese peoples.
absinthist
People, who were recorded as absinthistes, were just alcoholics, who overindulged in their tipple of choice because they happened to live in France that time. If van Gogh had not come to Paris, he would have been sipping his genever he was great admirer of. Every country had had its potion responsible for alcoholism of its citizens. It was not about absinthisme, anisisme, hyssopisme, but about alcoholisme. Ethanol is the poison in absinthe as in any other spirit, likker, creme, whatever.

I have drunk absinthes that had 0-1 mg/l of tujon and those 70-150mg/l of tujon. There are no effects like hallucinations, depression, seizures, whatthefuckever after drinking several glasses.

What might be more dangerous in Żubrówka? Coumarin or alcohol? For coumarin to take action, one needs to consume 5 x 500ml of żubrówka-one dies from acute alcohol consumption long before a little coumarin has had an effect on the bloodstream. Same is with absinthe and tujon.
Provenance
The possibility that there is something uniquely dangerous about absinthe should not be ruled out. The build-up of toxins may explan why absinthe drinkers frequent obscure drinking forums and spend absurd sums for a bottle of booze.
Kirk
I like the taste. I drink only absinthe, have for years. It has had an effect on my life that I would not trade for
extra time on this planet. I hope it is not giving me cancer. The bad effects I have had are from over indulgence, a thing I try to keep to a moderate level. The only negative physical effect I've noticed is it makes me feel like I've been punched in the kidneys. Beer and whiskey do the same thing to me, I'm probably killing myself by drinking anything besides water.
Jaded Prole
I like Jack's theory that the obsession is "absinthism."

Quality trumps quantity and given the state of the world, living too long might not be the best option. I hope that the last experience I have in this life is the lingering taste of good absinthe, and knowing that this tenuous condition of life can end at any moment, one must be prepared at all times.
Tibro
QUOTE(Provenance @ Jul 16 2010, 04:48 PM) *

why absinthe drinkers frequent obscure drinking forums

And I remember when this was the biggest, most informative, most well-known virtual watering-hole in the universe. Y'know, maybe their is something deleterious going on.
Shabba53
QUOTE(frenchman @ Jul 16 2010, 10:22 AM) *
Perhaps it is only 5 years if you are alcoholic with Absinthe… are you ?

So are you worried about the average drinker, or the alcoholic? Anything done to excess can and almost inevitably will be detrimental to your health.

Several people each year die in the US of water intoxication. Should we be worried that water will negatively affect everyone because some people can't limit themselves?

QUOTE
And all bodies do not react the same, some catch a cancer because only one cigarette per day, other bodies have nothing else with 2 packets of cigarettes per days.

True, but that's also why we can't exclude everything for everyone. Alcohol itself causes many deaths each year due to short term stupidity (binge drinking) or long term abuse. Even things that are good for you in moderation can be bad for you in excess.

As I'm sure you've probably seen before, in 1868, the British medical journal, The Lancet chimed in on the claims of toxicity of absinthe:
QUOTE
It is quite clear that a great deal of what has been said is mere nonsense, and will not bear a moment's investigation. And when one reads carefully even the seemingly authoritative description of the symptoms given by M. Legrand … it is impossible to fix on any definite peculiarities which clearly distinguish poisoning with absinthe from poisoning with any other concentrated alcohol, taken in small doses repeated with extreme frequency…

For our own part, we have never been convinced that there is anything in the symptoms of acute or chronic absinthism as they are described, essentially different from those of acute or chronic alcoholism which has been produced by the imbibition of innumerable drams of any spirit.

We have repeatedly seen the whole train of symptoms, which are now so much talked of, produced by the constant drinking of brandy or rum. As for hallucinations, there is nothing more common. At any rate, it will take a good deal of very solid and precise evidence to convince us that the trifling amount of essence of wormwood contained in the liquor called absinthe, adds any considerable poisonous power to the natural influence of some 20 or 30 ounces per diem of a highly concentrated alcohol,
Provenance
QUOTE
taken in small doses
Guess they weren't talking about Stompy.

QUOTE
the natural influence of some 20 or 30 ounces per diem of a highly concentrated alcohol
Or perhaps they were.
frenchman
IPB Image
absinthist
Caravaggio. Contains toxic oil colours, better not look or you get blind.
sixela
QUOTE(Provenance @ Jul 16 2010, 03:48 PM) *

The possibility that there is something uniquely dangerous about absinthe should not be ruled out.

Well, you'd think they'd have found it by the start of the 20th century, given the copious amounts consumed, yet even the Lancet thought that Magnan's symptoms for "absinthism" seemed to be very hard to discriminate from ethanol poisoning.

It is of course entirely possible, but I would say the evidence at hand doesn't point that way at all, and no amount of handwaving will change that.

sixela
QUOTE(frenchman @ Jul 16 2010, 03:04 PM) *

I just show you that different scientifics french writers, at different periods, met these effects….


No, you didn't. Science doesn't work by association - at least it hasn't since at least the modern age. It works by creating an evidence trail, and you haven't connected the dots.

Yeah, that makes us "unbelieving Thomas", I guess. There's another word for it: a sceptic. We aren't talking metaphysics here, so there's no need to resort to blind faith. The opposite of a sceptic in this context has a fine French word which you'll understand: "un fumiste".

It doesn't even help that you try a line of argument that is partly based on the confusion between "absinthe, la plante" and "absinthe, la boisson" which flies even less well on an English forum.

But do continue: it's highly entertaining, almost as much as when you came here to extol the virtues of Abisinthe Amer (now with extra chop.gif and absinthine for your "enjoyment").

By the way, the original question was answered a long time ago: it is really unsafe if consumed without moderation, because there is a lot of ethanol in it. Ethanol intoxication kills and ethanol dependence utterly destroys thousands of lives.

Wondering if there's something uniquely toxic in it is like wondering if jumping off a plane at 2000m without a parachute is dangerous because you might catch a cold on the way down.
Artemis
QUOTE
It doesn't even help that you try a line of argument that is partly based on the confusion between "absinthe, la plante" and "absinthe, la boisson"


Maybe it's absinthe, le poisson.

http://twitoaster.com/country-us/amandapal...ds-for-5-hours/

Click to view attachment


frenchman
I am giving you a fact that I argue with old evidence, and you blah, blah, blah ….

Still the same problem, you work with axioms.

1/ In the text below, 1824:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3118…bier.f23.langFR
The author describes the symptoms well before "Absinthe drink. In addition, the author clearly a difference between the juice of wormwood and absinthe distilled water or alcohol, it does not just mean the plant gathered in a field.
This person seems to know very well the effects of this plant, in all forms.

2 / In this text:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5681…ave.f225.langFR
The author tells us clearly that the French army tried Absinthe (the drink) and quickly found problems, enough to prohibit its use by 1845. This is not nothing! (At that time, the Army offers free tobacco that will be questioned until 150 years later …. One can imagine that the problems were very serious)

Now, instead of blah, blah, blah, I just suggested to try to expand this research, no more

We could for exemple try to know more about this Absinthe beer in UK (author of 1824).
We could try to find the text of 1845 about french military prohibition.

We can't solve everything with tlaboraty test tubes.
The experience of older people, even empirical, deserves to be heard.
absinthist
From what I read, it was an ale served hot, infused with fresh absinthium or maritima leaves, spiked generously with gin and drunk in the early morning. If you haven't had a decent breakfast and the gin was of suspicious nature, it was the ultimate knockdown for an empty stomach, what explains why people might behave such and such after consuming it. In these times, very popular was the following slogan:

"as the early bird catches the worm, so the early purl catches the customer"

Purl per se was not a predecessor of bitter ale as some might have suspected, but a drink on its own, together with the aforementioned canary wine, posset and such.

Here is a description of a process of making it (1836):

QUOTE
Pint after pint of purl was called for; at length, a gallon of strong ale was placed upon the table, a quart of gin was dashed into it, and the whole warmed with a red-hot poker.


From a book on Dickens' drinking, we arrive at such a description:

QUOTE
Purl began life in the Middle Ages as a mixture of wormwood, gentian, calamus, horseradish, and other bitter herbs, steeped in a quantity of ale for several months


When purl disappeared, the modern purl-mixture of mild porter, sugar and gin took over.

Why it was driving people under the table? For few simple reasons:

1) it was drunk in massive quantity, usually instead of breakfast in the early morning

2) it was served warm, what was easing the influence of ethanol-the absorption and the drunkeness was quicker

3) it contained gin which was a strong liquor and very often adulterated with turpentine oil

Edit: The ale of London was in the range 4-8%, Gin was 40-50%, knowing this, we might assess the strength of purl as 18.75% abv at least (if we take 8 and 50), so drinking a pint of an equivalent of Lacryma Christi wine, or Malaga, or Madeira of the heyday, heating the shit up and you have something that knocks the man down quicker than boiler maker or Belfast bomb. A pernicious, yet nicely-tasting cocktail.
frenchman
1867, army, confirmed the prohibition of absinthe, although prior testing of doctors
Wine and other liquors are permitted after controlling liquor by military doctors.
So for a military doctor, 1867, Absinthe is a dangerous drink, even if properly manufactured and controlled by a doctor.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5790…the+.f36.langFR
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5790…nthe+.f4.langFR

1885 Absinthe taxed in military kitchens …. The Absinthe is back officially in the military kitchens, the 1845 law is forgotten. Or the law coexists with a charge contrary to this Act …. possible in France.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5415…the.f270.langFR
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5415…inthe.f6.langFR

1863
Forbidden to the army because:
- Falsification
- Expensive
- Good in small doses, but the military abusers
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5613…inthe.f6.langFR
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5613…the.f128.langFR
We also learn that the Alps Genepi is used for the coloration of the product


It would be interesting to find something akin to 1845, explaining the rationale behind the original ban in the military.
absinthist
In a book by William Clarke entitled "Publican and Inkeeper's Practical Guide" of 1830 how a gin was made back in a day is described:

IPB Image
Jaded Prole
QUOTE
There are poisons that accumulate in the body . . .

That's just what I tell Ms. Prole.
G&C
Good thing gin and absinthe flush out all those toxins.
Jaded Prole
Indeed!™
Kirk
In case anyone was wondering, a pennyweight is approximately 1.55 grams. It is sometimes written as Dwt and called dar weight.
Donnie Darko
There is no evidence of Absinthe containing a quantity of any ingredient that would lead to any pathology aside from what one would expect from ethanol. That is not to say that it is impossible for any of the ingredients to have a physiological effect, but there is yet to be any evidence presented of pathology due to absinthe consumption that is linked to something other than ethanol.
Artemis


QUOTE
I am giving you a fact that I argue with old evidence, and you blah, blah, blah …. Still the same problem, you work with axioms.

I thought it was interesting that the guy who was puking and sitting on a cork attributed his condition to fish or "fan-made" absinthe. Isn't the French word "amateur" equivalent to the English "fan"? It goes to this point: Before we can consider WHY any given authority banned "absinthe" at any given time, we have to consider WHAT they were banning.

QUOTE
The author describes the symptoms well before "Absinthe drink. In addition, the author clearly a difference between the juice of wormwood and absinthe distilled water or alcohol, it does not just mean the plant gathered in a field. This person seems to know very well the effects of this plant, in all forms.


He's talking about medicines - he specifically mentions tinctures of wormwood and wormwood wine. The title of the chapter is "medicines". Absinthe extract (the liquor we know as absinthe) and tincture of wormwood are not the same thing, although they both involve distillation. I believe that a tincture is a solution of essential oil (in this case, wormwood oil), possibly very highly concentrated, in a small amount of pure alcohol. Wormwood wine is nothing but a maceration of wormwood with no distillation at all. Most of what he writes is clearly NOT about absinthe the liquor, but about wormwood, the plant and/or extracts of the wormwood plant in various medical preparations that probably contain some alcohol.

QUOTE
1867, army, confirmed the prohibition of absinthe, although prior testing of doctors Wine and other liquors are permitted after controlling liquor by military doctors. So for a military doctor, 1867, Absinthe is a dangerous drink, even if properly manufactured and controlled by a doctor.


I don't see anything about doctors testing anything. What I did see is "Water is the ordinary drink of the soldiers in peacetime. There is in every barracks a canteen and the dispensing of wine and liquors is authorized, with the reservation of control often exercised by the doctors over the quality of these liquids; at their request, absinthe is excluded."

So, doctors had a say over the dispensing of liquors based upon their quality (using what standards of "quality" we don't know) and they didn't want absinthe dispensed at all.

QUOTE
The Absinthe is back officially in the military kitchens, the 1845 law is forgotten.


I don't think there was a law. The text refers to one or more executive orders (Decisions ministerielles des 27 Septembre et 11 Octobre 1845). The significance is that the prohibition in question was not imposed by a vote of elected representatives after (in theory) reasoned debate, but by a minister, according to his own whim. If the minister changed, the order probably changed. Maybe that minister owned wineries? Do politicians always do things in the interest of the public, or for selfish reasons, or through ignorance?

QUOTE
One can imagine that the problems were very serious


Yes, but what where the problems?

This drink is commonly manufactured with bad alcohol, water and essential oil of wormwood. Seldom, no matter what they say about it in the prospectuses, do they resort to distillation of the flowering tops of plants in alcohol. Fabricated in one way or another, it is always a harmful beverage, whether they drink it straight, or with water, as is the practice in the cafes, they do not begin to imagine the number of drugs to which the producers resort to augment the tendency to louche in contact with water, or to give it a more appealing color. They use indigo and sulfate of copper. Our wars in Africa had put absinthe, thirty years ago, in great honor. They found a means thereby to conceal the poor quality of water, and a certain nervous excitation which made them forget the troubles of military service and the fatigue of a very hard campaign; but the doctors of the army were not late in perceiving that the usage of this drink gave rise to the most calamitous diseases: nervous trembling, subsidence of the faculties, softening of the brain, madness, apoplexy, etc and ministerial instructions, often renewed since 1845, absolutely forbid usage in camps and canteens.

Apart from softening of the brain, which is a malady more common among the politicians who sent those poor bastards to some hellhole to fight in the first place, I would venture that all of these maladies are fairly common among soliders in all wars and all times. Throw into it drinking water that by itself would kill you, and poorly made absinthe (and who knows how many other patent medicines), along with the daily allowed ration of the sacred wine and eau de vie, and maybe overuse of perfectly good absinthe, and what do you have? It's interesting that in one of those texts you cite, it's admitted that in Egypt overuse of eau de vie gets more soliders killed than the fire of the enemy.

QUOTE
It would be interesting to find something akin to 1845, explaining the rationale behind the original ban in the military.


We cannot assume there was anything rational about it.

Liquor of Wormwood - Everyone knows it is an alcoholic drink very much in use among the troops of the army in Africa. We shall say first that it is prepared with the flowering tops of wormwood, calamus aromaticus, star anise, roots of angelica and alcohol. They color it green with leaves or juice of yarrow, spinache, nettles, Alpine genépi, all substances which are not harmful to health (emphasis added by me).

It can be faked by using sulfate of copper to color it (Mr Derheims). They have even signaled their sophistication by using chloride of antimony (Mr Stanislas Martin). They understand that such fakes can be very harmful to health ....

The liquor of wormwood (alcoolat) is these days regarded as a stimulant to digestion, but at a price, due to the shenanigans of which it is an object and the abuse they make of it in the army, it must be considered the bloodiest and the most perfidious of the drinks at the disposition of the soldier.

I'm willing to consider that some "absinthe" was harmful for reasons other than alcohol, and we know wormwood and lots of other plants can be harmful. I'm willing to consider that even the best quality absinthe may be harmful for reasons other than alcohol. But I don't see anything in what you've presented that would convince me that the banning of absinthe had any foundation in science. Yes, we can learn a lot from the old folks, and science isn't everything. We may never know what the effects were of the things people were drinking more than a hundred years ago, when we aren't even sure what those things were, but for the purpose of a discussion relevant to our own health today (and does anything else really matter?), it would seem we have to limit the discussion to the effects of what we have as absinthe today, and modern science and our own senses seem perfectly adequate to the task.
Tibro
Wow. You almost had me. Until I realized that those many werdz could hurt me in the state I'm in. A veritable refutational wall.
Artemis
I quit several times through it, and every time decided I had gone thus far, might as well stay the course and finish it, so I stuck with it for the benefit of those who don't read any French at all and may have thought there was some revelation in those tedious old texts that they couldn't see - it's interesting enough, and I thank the Frenchman for taking the time to put it all up, but I don't see anything to change what most of us have accepted as the what's what of absinthe the poison.
Kirk
QUOTE
it would seem we have to limit the discussion to the effects of what we have as absinthe today, and modern science and our own senses seem perfectly adequate to the task.

Nice.
frenchman
QUOTE(Artemis @ Jul 17 2010, 01:10 PM) *



I'm willing to consider that some "absinthe" was harmful for reasons other than alcohol, and we know wormwood and lots of other plants can be harmful. I'm willing to consider that even the best quality absinthe may be harmful for reasons other than alcohol. But I don't see anything in what you've presented that would convince me that the banning of absinthe had any foundation in science. Yes, we can learn a lot from the old folks, and science isn't everything. We may never know what the effects were of the things people were drinking more than a hundred years ago, when we aren't even sure what those things were, but for the purpose of a discussion relevant to our own health today (and does anything else really matter?), it would seem we have to limit the discussion to the effects of what we have as absinthe today, and modern science and our own senses seem perfectly adequate to the task.



Thanks a lot for your translations

But, You still "blah blah" again on french autor writings,
that themselves "blah blah" on a french law,
that nobody saw the genuine argumentation and text, untill today…

It is why, i am offering a free stainless steel fountains at first person who will find the genuine text of this law with its argumentation. "Décisions Ministérielles des 27 Septembre et 11 Octobre 1845"
frenchman
QUOTE(Artemis @ Jul 17 2010, 01:10 PM) *


QUOTE
1867, army, confirmed the prohibition of absinthe, although prior testing of doctors Wine and other liquors are permitted after controlling liquor by military doctors. So for a military doctor, 1867, Absinthe is a dangerous drink, even if properly manufactured and controlled by a doctor.


I don't see anything about doctors testing anything. What I did see is "Water is the ordinary drink of the soldiers in peacetime. There is in every barracks a canteen and the dispensing of wine and liquors is authorized, with the reservation of control often exercised by the doctors over the quality of these liquids; at their request, absinthe is excluded."

So, doctors had a say over the dispensing of liquors based upon their quality (using what standards of "quality" we don't know) and they didn't want absinthe dispensed at all.



Thanks again for translation.
You right, english word "testing" was wrong, we don't know how military doctors felt the quality of liquors.
By this text, we learn only that they consider absinthe dangerous for the army, whatever its quality production.
Lot of other liquors had also made with neutral alcool (bad or good quality) + coloration (often bad), you kow that if you read any old french book about distillation.
I wonder why, consistently, only ban absinthe ?

It is why i am a lot interested by the genuine argumentation about this law of 1845.
(oldest text i found about this law is from 1863, 18 years later. )
sixela
QUOTE(frenchman @ Jul 17 2010, 07:53 AM) *

I am giving you a fact that I argue with old evidence,

Good thing you're not a scientist. I don't think you have a clear understanding of what the word "evidence" means.

QUOTE

Still the same problem, you work with axioms.

No, I work with hypotheses and a methodology to falsify them (or not).

QUOTE

The experience of older people, even empirical, deserves to be heard.

They burned witches for a very long time, based on the "empirical experience of older people". It's not science, and it shouldn't be called evidence. For what it's worth, ministerial decrees are also not evidence (fortunately, given the amount of bullshit that has been enshrined in law over the ages).
Artemis
QUOTE
oldest text i found about this law is from 1863, 18 years later


I found the same. If we did find the text of this regulation, could we expect to read in there any REASONS, such as "absinthe is banned because blah blah blah", or would (as I expect) the text only say "absinthe is banned"?

The Code des officiers de santé de l'armée de terre, which I assume is the 1863 source, gives the dates of the regulation and gives a hint at the reasons when it says (I may have made mistakes in the translation above - does it mean "at a price" or is it talking about the price of absinthe?):

La liqueur d'absinthe (alcoolat) prise modérément est regardée comme stimulant des forces digestives; mais par son prix, par les sophistications dont elle est l'objet et par l'abus qu'on en fait dans l'armée, elle doit être considérée comme la plus meurtrière et la plus perfide des boissons qui soit a la disposition du soldat. Aussi doit on approuver la mesure qui a défendu l'usage de la liqueur d'absinthe aux troupes, et qui en a prohibe la vente dans des camps, les cantines et autres endroits fréquentes par les militaires.
sixela
QUOTE(Artemis @ Jul 18 2010, 04:56 AM) *

or is it talking about the price of absinthe?):


It is indeed talking about the price of absinthe (i.e. the dangers of seeing soldiers spend too much of their money on the drink). Note that the first line claims that absinthe consumed moderately is actually beneficial to one's health, but that problems arose because it wasn't consumed moderately.

frenchman
QUOTE(Artemis @ Jul 17 2010, 07:56 PM) *

QUOTE
oldest text i found about this law is from 1863, 18 years later


I found the same. If we did find the text of this regulation, could we expect to read in there any REASONS, such as "absinthe is banned because blah blah blah", or would (as I expect) the text only say "absinthe is banned"?



We have big risk that the genuine text only say "absinthe is banned", i agree,
it is why i am asking about the genuine argumentation of this law.

Before the law, there are reports, experts …. It was an event that has caused this Act….

my goal is not to prove that absinthe is a poisin,
my only goal is to find a truth,
I remind you that absinthe is also my business ….
absinthist
Truth is bitter, do not look for it.
G&C
I didn't find any old French laws about absinthe, but I found the bitter truth.
Provenance
QUOTE(sixela @ Jul 16 2010, 02:56 PM) *

QUOTE(Provenance @ Jul 16 2010, 03:48 PM) *

The possibility that there is something uniquely dangerous about absinthe should not be ruled out.

Well, you'd think they'd have found it by the start of the 20th century, given the copious amounts consumed, yet even the Lancet thought that Magnan's symptoms for "absinthism" seemed to be very hard to discriminate from ethanol poisoning.

It is of course entirely possible, but I would say the evidence at hand doesn't point that way at all, and no amount of handwaving will change that.

Sixer does not have a keen understanding of humor, does he?
frenchman
The 1845 Law :

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5725…inthe.f4.langFR
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5725…the.f132.langFR

1/ Alcohol is Dangerous
2/ There is a substance very exciting in essential oils.

1/ is conform with anybody is thinking
2/ is conform with the wrote of 1824
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3118…bier.f23.langFR

And this law is not to save the French vineyards face of the threat of absinthe (as MD Delahaye wrote for 1915 law), it is only to save the soldiers.

In any case, we have a big missing in Absinthe story, we can rewrite it !
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