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Absinthia
Has anyone tried this one yet? An authentic American recipe, made in the Swiss town of Couvet by Mr. Bugnon.

http://www.butterflyabsinthe.com/

On a side note, would the bottle of "Projet P" seen in Mr. Bugnon's distillery during the Fête de l'Absinthe in June have had anything to do with Butterfly absinthe (the "P" then standing for "Papillon" which is French for butterfly)…?
Just wondering. I didn't get the chance to taste the "P" since the wicked bus driving lady arrived to pick us up right after my first glass of Capricieuse.
Steve
Yes, I tasted it. I liked it! Brian F. sent me a sample. I will have to have a few more drinks before deciding for sure whether it's something I would frequently reach for. I just ordered a bottle from Rue Verte.

Marc said on Facebook that it is not the same as Project P, but I think it is. However, I got very drunk that Friday evening in Switzerland and my memory may not serve me well. The two herbs that we talked about being in Project P (which I'm not going to mention) seem to me to be prominent in Butterfly.

A certain Canadian was raving about it, saying it is the best commercial verte he's ever tasted. Perhaps he will chime in here.
Tibro
I read something on another forum that Project P is not Butterfly. I take it all with a grain of salt. Bugnon seems to have his fingers in so many pies. Who knows what misdirection he'd like to create during a public performance. Oh pie.
Esseintes
Regardless if this product is any good, it clearly shows the inconsequence of CAB.

You remember the IGP? Do you?
So on the one hand these guys try to get rid of all Absinthe "imitates" - so basically all non VdT formulas, right?

And now they come up with a reproduction of an old American formula? Something is generally wrong here!

Again - I don't want to quote the quality of the product, but doublespeak!

We're urged investing quite a lot of time and money to fight against the IGP to keep the Absinthemarket a free and liberal market. In case the IGP comes a lot great products are history.

Think twice one which side you are standing.

Keep the freedom!
EdouardPerneau
QUOTE(Steve @ Aug 4 2010, 02:41 PM) *

A certain Canadian was raving about it, saying it is the best commercial verte he's ever tasted. Perhaps he will chime in here.


Present … yes the best verte it just like helfrich orange aromas with vintageish absinthe in the back
R3al Caravano
It's hard to read in acronyms. My green fairy decoder ring did not come in the mail.
Green Baron
Maybe if you'd PTFA once in awhile you wouldn't need a LongWindedFuckin'Explainationlemur.gif

The IGP never had any sensible foundation to begin with but this just heaps hypocrisy on top of foolishness.

So will Butterfly be produced from here on out in VdT, or will normal production continue in the US? I hate it, but I just can't support the VdT folks while they're trying to screw other good distillers over, not mention myself as a consumer that would be potentially robbed of many excellent choices.
Absinthia
The VdT distillers were probably too drunk the moment they decided on the IGP thing and are now too proud to admit that they were plain wrong. Even they have to see the invalidness of their arguments. I'm sure that the commission that will decide on the IGP will see them. Too bad that indeed someone else has to pay a great deal in order to keep some sense in this world. And hey, you know on who's side I'm on.

QUOTE(Esseintes @ Aug 4 2010, 09:08 PM) *
And now they come up with a reproduction of an old American formula? Something is generally wrong here!


The same thought crossed my mind, seeing how the brand is being marketed you'd suppose they found an American distiller to make it. That would enhance the brand's credibility, right?

But that doesn't mean it can't make a great and tasty drink though, which was the real point of my question actually.
Alan
QUOTE(Green Baron @ Aug 4 2010, 04:41 PM) *
they're trying to screw other good distillers over, not mention myself as a consumer that would be potentially robbed of many excellent choices.

While I am not in the VDT producers' inner circle, I think that this does not reflect the producers' intent. The number one purpose is to protect the business inside Switzerland from the fake absinthes that have plagued the rest of the world. As the Swiss edge closer to the EU in trade terms, that IS a real threat.

Let's look at the "choices" Green Baron mentions:-

a) US absinthes: given that the largest drinks companies in the world cannot get the USA to stop making US champagne, I think the chances of a group of very small artisanal producers of VDT Absinthe achieving a coup with absinthe are precisely nil. Read this discussion on the American Distiller Forums, notably:-

"Granting the IGP for absinthe will have no effect on American absinthe producers. It doesn't even indicate an intention by Val de Travers producers to claim exclusive worldwide rights to the name. I know Ted Breaux and David Nathan-Maister are well respected, but they are grossly exaggerating the threat to absinthe producers outside of Switzerland."
Not my words, but those of Charles Cowdery, a well-known US drinks expert.

b) French absinthes: there is absolutely no automatic implementation of a Swiss IGP elsewhere. It would have to be negotiated, discussed, appealed etc. At the last count, the EU had over 800 IGP's they would like to implement in Switzerland in contrast to the 20 or so that Switzerland has currently. The bureaucrats of the EU and Switzerland will no doubt spend years and many millions of tax-payers euros and Swiss francs on that, and if I had to bet on the outcome, I would bet on the status quo being maintained.

c) Other absinthes produced in Switzerland: I am not an expert but I have heard views expressed that an IGP might not necessarily stop Matter exporting.

I have suggested to several of the parties who feel they are affected by this that they contact Yves Kubler to discuss this. To my knowledge, no-one has.

QUOTE(Absinthia @ Aug 4 2010, 11:25 PM) *

The VdT distillers were probably too drunk the moment they decided on the IGP thing and are now too proud to admit that they were plain wrong.
I agree it could have been handled differently, but the decision to protect their internal business in Switzerland is understandable

QUOTE(Absinthia @ Aug 4 2010, 11:25 PM) *

QUOTE(Esseintes @ Aug 4 2010, 09:08 PM) *
And now they come up with a reproduction of an old American formula? Something is generally wrong here!


The same thought crossed my mind, seeing how the brand is being marketed you'd suppose they found an American distiller to make it. That would enhance the brand's credibility, right?
Alternatively an absinthe that combines real, 100 year old US heritage and recipe with Swiss "savoir faire" and ingredients could have a very broad appeal. It's notable that precisely none of the US-made absinthes have made any impact outside the USA.

And to go back to your original question, Butterfly seems to be very popular among the few who have tried it. There is a lot of discussion on the French forum … with very little reference to the IGP.

Tibro
While I welcome reading your comments, Alan, and certainly think you have something to add as Bugnon's brand manager (or however you refer to your services there), I'm still troubled by your argument.

It seems to me that you're saying that you believe the IGP is a proper action on the part of the VdT distillers because it will be toothless and benign beyond the Swiss borders. You gloss Matter's inability to sell within that border, which is not benign. The French are dismissed using the technicality of automatic implementation, rather than eventual or, according to others, inevitable implementation. And the US, well that may as well be another planet.

What about the simple appropriateness of an IGP for the name of a weed? It's absurd. And manufacturing an absinthe based on an Amerikan recipe in the VdT is contradictory to the spirit of the application.

Somehow in my simple-headed silliness all I can think is "Oh pie, oh pie, opie."
Donnie Darko
On the topic of Butterfly Absinthe I am perplexed. While individual comments from trustworthy tasters do make it sound like a product worth looking into, the grammatically confusing web page describing how this absinthe was "recreated" tells you very little about the absinthe or its history or why we should believe them when they tell us this is a recreation of the original (they also say it is a modern rendition of the original, which seems contradictory).

I remember when the single bottle of Butterfly I've ever seen was up on eBay about 9 years ago. It seems as if the developer did a lot of research into the family history, but there is so little mention of the specifics of this particular absinthe, its distillery, recipe, origins, or even how it compares to the original (if a comparison is even possible), that I'm not confident this is anything more than a new absinthe that took on Butterfly's name. Of course I could be completely wrong, but there is no information on the page describing the product that inspires confidence in terms of it actually being an accurate recreation, and it's unfortunate that this recreation of an American original absinthe has led to just another expensive import. Perhaps this is all just me being confused by the website, and Brian F deserves the benefit of the doubt, but can anyone with more knowledge actually tell us anything in detail about the original butterfly absinthe beyond who made it and where it was made?

I'm also curious about the claim on the website that wormwood was so prominent in the US that it was exported to Europe for absinthe manufacture. That's the first I've heard this un-cited claim. Can anybody verify it?
Kirk
You've heard me say it, I can't find the, (didn't bother looking for it) but it said that many thousands of kilos were grown in the US, the states mentioned were Michigan and Minnesota. I recall the reason given for importing the wormwood from the US was not because there was an excess but because of the gentle flavors it imparts to the product.
On a side note, I have to laugh whenever I see "recreation". So far there has only been one person in the world that I know of that is capable of making one.
The original protocols have never been written down accurately, or interpreted correctly, none of the commercial distillers have gotten right yet. There may be some drinkable absinthe being made but no commercial producer has taken (all) the steps to truly recreate a pre ban.
Alan
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Aug 5 2010, 05:08 AM) *

I'm also curious about the claim on the website that wormwood was so prominent in the US that it was exported to Europe for absinthe manufacture. That's the first I've heard this un-cited claim. Can anybody verify it?

Chicago Daily Tribune 1903

Donnie, the Butterfly site states:

"The first step of the project was enlisting a group of local historians to research the brand and the Dempsey family. The research yielded a treasure trove of distilling information including a collection of books once owned by the Dempsey family with hand annotated recipes."

I understand from Brian that his researchers unearthed several recipes and I confirm that we are using an authentic recipe from the Dempseys. We cannot know how close we are to the taste of the original absinthe produced: until a sample presents itself, we can only speculate.
EdouardPerneau
IGP is juste another case stop mixing butterfly with it
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 5 2010, 10:27 AM) *

QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Aug 5 2010, 05:08 AM) *

I'm also curious about the claim on the website that wormwood was so prominent in the US that it was exported to Europe for absinthe manufacture. That's the first I've heard this un-cited claim. Can anybody verify it?

Chicago Daily Tribune 1903


Oh! I didn't look at the Blog section because I usually avoid reading anything called "Blog" because blog to me always meant "unedited opinion and speculation". That's very interesting that the US was once a desirable source of wormwood. The Chicago Tribune article is hilarious in its hysteria.

It seems like Butterfly is on the right track. Since a treasure trove of information has been unearthed, it would be great for the absinthe community to be allowed access to whatever pieces of the information that would not jeopardize Butterfly's recipe/process, but would nonetheless provide more information about the brand.
Esseintes
QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 5 2010, 12:49 AM) *

QUOTE(Green Baron @ Aug 4 2010, 04:41 PM) *
they're trying to screw other good distillers over, not mention myself as a consumer that would be potentially robbed of many excellent choices.

While I am not in the VDT producers' inner circle, I think that this does not reflect the producers' intent. The number one purpose is to protect the business inside Switzerland from the fake absinthes that have plagued the rest of the world. As the Swiss edge closer to the EU in trade terms, that IS a real threat.


Sorry Alan, but that's just bullsh… and you know that it is!

You know Swiss regulation and that clearly defines how Absinthe has to be produced. And this regulation guarantees per se that inferior production methods are not possible in Switzerland. As far as I know it's not even possible bringing inferior products into Switzerland. So taking the IGP as an excuse for guaranteeing good quality is just WRONG!

Basically it's for the sake of very few more or less capable distillers who fear competition. The same guys were amnestied just 5 years ago and now they start asking for federal protection? Others who never distilled illegally are now to be punished to sit 35mls from the VdT.

Even if Matter would still be able exporting - how about their domestic market? Just bad luck, you're out - or what?

Sorry man, but I can't take any of your arguments for serious.
Alan
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Aug 5 2010, 07:02 AM) *

Since a treasure trove of information has been unearthed, it would be great for the absinthe community to be allowed access to whatever pieces of the information that would not jeopardize Butterfly's recipe/process, but would nonetheless provide more information about the brand.

Brian has a lot of information that he will progressively add to the site.

QUOTE(Esseintes @ Aug 5 2010, 07:23 AM) *

QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 5 2010, 12:49 AM) *
The number one purpose is to protect the business inside Switzerland from the fake absinthes that have plagued the rest of the world. As the Swiss edge closer to the EU in trade terms, that IS a real threat.


Sorry Alan, but that's just bullsh… and you know that it is!

You know Swiss regulation and that clearly defines how Absinthe has to be produced. And this regulation guarantees per se that inferior production methods are not possible in Switzerland. As far as I know it's not even possible bringing inferior products into Switzerland.

Sorry, Markus, but we'll have to disagree on that. With the EU and Switzerland getting closer in trading terms, the possibility of a "Cassis de Dijon" effect has indeed been raised. For those that don't know this, it's the principle that if a product is legal in one country, it's legal across the whole of the EU (and potentially Switzerland). This would allow all the Hill's, Frukos, KOS's etc into Switzerland. I've seen confidential correspondence to that effect from a Swiss official and I mentioned that to Ted and others many months ago. An IGP has the potential to "trump" the "Cassis de Dijon."

Of course I understand that doesn't help you inside Switzerland but I don't think we will resolve this issue in a public discussion.
Esseintes
If your intention was to prohibit crapsinth in Switzerland that's one thing, but that's just one side of the coin. The other clearly means to get rid of competitors.
Alan
As you know, none of this is "my" intention.
dakini_painter
QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 5 2010, 04:49 AM) *

It's notable that precisely none of the US-made absinthes have made any impact outside the USA.


You're presuming that none of them have tried. I have considered it. I've had inquiries. Both from individuals interested in my absinthe as well as retailers. In the EU as well as Canada. Certain retailers can happily send EU absinthe to their US consumers direct, we here in the US can't do the same. Well I guess we could but we're all too fucking honest especially with having to ship through special Customs Bonded Warehouses where some government agent will proof my spirits to make sure they're really 136 proof and report to TTB what I've exported to prove that I'm not a crook on my monthly reports and bi-monthly tax returns.

Sorry, but it seems that there's a bit of a double standard here. Not only with the producers but with some consumers as well. OO LA LA! Yet another European absinthe! Got my order in! Jades, three for the price of two here in the US! Free shipping! OO LA LA!!

There may be people who think I'm being bitter or something, but I'm just being very realistic. It's clearly better to come out with some new absinthe, the Next Big Thing (that maybe will be like pre-Ban in a bottle at a regular absinthe price), than have a product on the market that people buy repeatedly because they like it. hey, it works for Buffalo Trace. It works for Four Roses. Hell, it works for WL Weller and Old Grand Dad!

But it doesn't work that way in the world of absinthe.

Back on topic, I don't care at all about the IGP. When the TTB tells me I can't put absinthe on my label, I'll take that off. But since absinthe doesn't exist for the TTB, and none of the products with absinthe on the label are actually absinthe according to TTB (since they don't recognize such a class or type of spirit), I don't think it'll have any effect in my lifetime.

And I don't care whether my absinthe comes close to or approximates pre-Ban or not. It was never intended to be a recreation, and I've never claimed that it was.
Artemis
QUOTE
IGP is juste another case stop mixing butterfly with it


blink.gif

1 - We have been made aware of an attempt by a group of distillers in Switzerland to have absinthe defined as something unique to Switzerland.

2 - We have been made aware of a website touting absinthe supposedly made to the historical recipe of a U.S. distiller and bearing the same name as that historical absinthe. The absinthe in question is made in Switzerland, and correct me if I'm wrong here, by one of the distillers in the fore-mentioned group.

Someone is mixed up, but not the people pointing out the stinking hypocrisy of this situation.

In case it's not clear, Item 2 is a dagger in the gut of Item 1, and self-inflicted to boot, a tragicomical seppuku that should make any rational person not only skeptical of, but contemptuous of both 1 and 2. To say that it should make any decision by a judge on Item 1 a slam dunk against the IGP would be stating the obvious.
R3al Caravano
QUOTE(Green Baron @ Aug 4 2010, 08:41 PM) *

Maybe if you'd PTFA once in awhile you wouldn't need a LongWindedFuckin'Explainationlemur.gif


While I am quite certain that any explanation that you would have given would of both been long winded and full of hot air, all I wanted was the actual words that composed the acronyms, but it seems to be thoroughly explained through inference. When you ask me to PTFA, you must realize your mom was last night.
Artemis
IGP = Indication Geographique Protegee (French term for a protected geographical status)

Vdt = An informal (I guess) abbreviation for Val de Travers

The other one he used, I have no idea.
Green Baron
CAB = Claude-Alain Bugnon

Caravan-o, wandering into a discussion and kvetching cuz you don't understand some previously well-covered references deserves a PTFA. It's a rich tradition, so roll around in it and trot back inside to the dismay of the dinner guests.
Artemis
Thanks. I assumed it was an alliance or regulation of some sort; I would not have guessed Bugnon.
Green Baron
QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 5 2010, 12:49 AM) *

QUOTE(Green Baron @ Aug 4 2010, 04:41 PM) *
they're trying to screw other good distillers over, not mention myself as a consumer that would be potentially robbed of many excellent choices.

While I am not in the VDT producers' inner circle, I think that this does not reflect the producers' intent.


I didn't mean to imply they all met at the secret volcano lair and cackled "let's screw everyone over!". I was describing the potential effects. I mean, if one doesn't intend to kick somebody in the balls, then one probably shouldn't attempt the cancan in a packed room.
Artemis
QUOTE
... seeing how the brand is being marketed you'd suppose they found an American distiller to make it. That would enhance the brand's credibility, right?


My kneejerk response would be yeah, you right! But not necessarily. It would seem to enhance the marketability to U.S. buyers, but I can't think of a technical reason a U.S. absinthe could not be reproduced in another country in this day and age, anymore than a Swiss absinthe could not be reproduced in the U.S.
Alan
QUOTE(Artemis @ Aug 5 2010, 05:43 PM) *

1 - We have been made aware of an attempt by a group of distillers in Switzerland to have absinthe defined as something unique to Switzerland.
Artemis, sorry to read your views, but that's not how I see it.

"The number one purpose is to protect the business inside Switzerland from the fake absinthes that have plagued the rest of the world."

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Aug 5 2010, 02:42 PM) *
Certain retailers can happily send EU absinthe to their US consumers direct, we here in the US can't do the same. Well I guess we could but we're all too fucking honest especially with having to ship through special Customs Bonded Warehouses where some government agent will proof my spirits to make sure they're really 136 proof and report to TTB what I've exported to prove that I'm not a crook on my monthly reports and bi-monthly tax returns.

Sorry, but it seems that there's a bit of a double standard here. Not only with the producers but with some consumers as well. OO LA LA! Yet another European absinthe! Got my order in! Jades, three for the price of two here in the US! Free shipping! OO LA LA!!
I'm glad to see that you have had approaches from abroad: good luck. The issues you face, however, are exactly the ones we all face when shipping to other countries. I'm not sure what you mean by double standards in the examples you cite.

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Aug 5 2010, 02:42 PM) *

It's clearly better to come out with some new absinthe, the Next Big Thing (that maybe will be like pre-Ban in a bottle at a regular absinthe price), than have a product on the market that people buy repeatedly because they like it. hey, it works for Buffalo Trace. It works for Four Roses. Hell, it works for WL Weller and Old Grand Dad!

But it doesn't work that way in the world of absinthe.
Did you leave out the sarcasm emoticon here? Actually I think I am with you on this and I doubt many here would disagree. Most of the distillers here are focused on a main brand (if I can use that word). It's only the likes of Absente/Grande Absente/Ordinaire etc that seem anxious to stretch and maybe cheapen the category. I don't think I've described Butterfly as the Next Big Thing!

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Aug 5 2010, 02:42 PM) *
Back on topic, I don't care at all about the IGP … I don't think it'll have any effect in my lifetime.
I agree. If I could persuade all the other US distillers of that …


QUOTE(Green Baron @ Aug 5 2010, 06:58 PM) *

QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 5 2010, 12:49 AM) *

QUOTE(Green Baron @ Aug 4 2010, 04:41 PM) *
they're trying to screw other good distillers over, not mention myself as a consumer that would be potentially robbed of many excellent choices.

While I am not in the VDT producers' inner circle, I think that this does not reflect the producers' intent.


I didn't mean to imply they all met at the secret volcano lair and cackled "let's screw everyone over!". I was describing the potential effects.
As I explained, I think the potential effects on your choices as a consumer are minimal, maybe nil.
Artemis
QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 6 2010, 05:45 AM) *
QUOTE(Artemis @ Aug 5 2010, 05:43 PM) *

1 - We have been made aware of an attempt by a group of distillers in Switzerland to have absinthe defined as something unique to Switzerland.
Artemis, sorry to read your views, but that's not how I see it.

"The number one purpose is to protect the business inside Switzerland from the fake absinthes that have plagued the rest of the world."


In a different thread, we had the text of a letter in protest of the proposed IGP over the signatures of Ted Breaux and David Nathan-Maister, which stated in part:

"On March 31, 2010, the Swiss Interprofession filed for an IGP (Indication de Provenance Géographique) for the Val-de-Travers that specifically and independently protects not only the words the words "La Bleue", but also "Absinthe"and "Fée Verte".
Switzerland and the European Union are bound by several treaties, including the Agreement on Exchange of Agricultural Products dated April 30, 2002, and in particular, Appendix 8 relating to Wines and Spirits. As a result, E.U. producers will soon no longer be able to use the word "absinthe" as a product description. It's likely that this restriction would be extended to US producers (and in practice distributors) as well."

If there is something inaccurate about these assertions, take it up with the principals by all means, and if they admit they are wrong, or you can prove they are wrong, I'll reconsider my views. But if what they said is accurate, all that was necessary for me to made the assertion I did in point number 1 was to be able to read. It's not like I made it up out of nowhere. The only possible weakness in my post was the use of the phrase "unique to", so to clarify, I'll change that to "that can rightfully be made only in". But what's the practical difference?
Alan
QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 5 2010, 12:49 AM) *
Read this discussion on the American Distiller Forums, notably:-

"Granting the IGP for absinthe will have no effect on American absinthe producers. It doesn't even indicate an intention by Val de Travers producers to claim exclusive worldwide rights to the name. I know Ted Breaux and David Nathan-Maister are well respected, but they are grossly exaggerating the threat to absinthe producers outside of Switzerland."
Not my words, but those of Charles Cowdery, a well-known US drinks expert.

Green Baron
I'm trying say is that I think it's possible they may well have good/non-malicious intentions- and might even believe the outcome will be completely benign, but I just don't believe it'll be sans negative impact per the discussions. But it is definitely good to hear from you on the issue in more detail and I am not questioning your sincerity.
Tibro
Isn't there already a law in effect in Switzerland that quite narrowly defines what is necessary for a product if wants to be labeled as absinthe? That it must contain only all-natural ingredients and be distilled, is what I remember as being at the heart of it. Any reason the VdT distillers found this to be insufficient in protecting their domestic market from frauds? It's not even as if VdT produces all the ingredients that go into the various absinthes being distilled there.

I keep getting stuck at the first ring of exclusion, that Swiss distillers outside the VdT are going to be denied these labeling words if the IGP initiative is going to be successful. It's strange to me that if CAB distills Butterfly it's absinthe. But if Matter had been approached, and the initiative succeeds, it wouldn't be absinthe. Even if all the ingredients were identically sourced.

Alan
QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 5 2010, 08:02 AM) *
With the EU and Switzerland getting closer in trading terms, the possibility of a "Cassis de Dijon" effect has indeed been raised. For those that don't know this, it's the principle that if a product is legal in one country, it's legal across the whole of the EU (and potentially Switzerland). This would allow all the Hill's, Frukos, KOS's etc into Switzerland. I've seen confidential correspondence to that effect from a Swiss official and I mentioned that to Ted and others many months ago. An IGP has the potential to "trump" the "Cassis de Dijon."

eric
This is fun. I get to wear my hip boots whilst wading through the total bullshit I am reading in this thread.
Tibro
The potential of one potential to potentially trump another potential is potentially compelling, but it doesn't explain the appropriateness of potentially protecting the products of some Swiss distillers while potentially screwing other Swiss distillers.
eric
Cepten Le Pape of course.
R3al Caravano
QUOTE(Green Baron @ Aug 5 2010, 10:52 PM) *

Caravan-o, wandering into a discussion and kvetching cuz you don't understand some previously well-covered references deserves a PTFA. It's a rich tradition, so roll around in it and trot back inside to the dismay of the dinner guests.

It seems that I was not the only one that did not know all of the acronyms, so if your goal was the promotion if ignorance, you wear it well, and if your only goal is to satiate potential dinner guest, the same applies.
R3al Caravano
I will always prefer dinner guests that are covered in shit to ones that are full of shit.
thegreenimp
QUOTE(eric @ Aug 6 2010, 02:41 AM) *

Cepten Le Pape of course.


Izaak Walton would be very proud.
dakini_painter
QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 6 2010, 01:45 AM) *

QUOTE(dakini_painter @ Aug 5 2010, 02:42 PM) *

It's clearly better to come out with some new absinthe, the Next Big Thing (that maybe will be like pre-Ban in a bottle at a regular absinthe price), than have a product on the market that people buy repeatedly because they like it. hey, it works for Buffalo Trace. It works for Four Roses. Hell, it works for WL Weller and Old Grand Dad!

But it doesn't work that way in the world of absinthe.
Did you leave out the sarcasm emoticon here? Actually I think I am with you on this and I doubt many here would disagree. Most of the distillers here are focused on a main brand (if I can use that word). It's only the likes of Absente/Grande Absente/Ordinaire etc that seem anxious to stretch and maybe cheapen the category. I don't think I've described Butterfly as the Next Big Thing!


I was thinking of my impression of how people (perhaps more at WS than here) seem to grasp out at any new absinthe that comes along. Maybe it's just the cult of the new. The absinthe market isn't well developed enough for there to be sufficient customers for all these brands, US-produced and approved, or imported from EU.

I'm certain the category will be cheapened. Has to happen. It can't all be "ultra-premium", whatever that might mean. In the world of whiskey, there really isn't terrible US whiskey. Especially since the artificially flavored and colored whiskies have to be labeled "imitation whiskey", except for the blends which are blends of mostly vodka and whiskey.
R3al Caravano
I believe in laissez faire in a more general sense. You can impose rules until your heart's content, but if someone has enough money there are always ways around them. Perhaps, you sell more of a product than anyone else, this by definition is a commodity. Let the bottle speak for itself. If your bottom line is profit, or your bottom line is the content of the bottle, it will speak its marrow when it hits your palate. It is simply a matter of investment to what ends.
Aggelos
QUOTE
I'm certain the category will be cheapened. Has to happen. It can't all be "ultra-premium", whatever that might mean


I hear you. Still looking for a product which I could drink with my friends on a regular basis : give me the essentials, and make it cheap.

Sad to say, but any beverage without a major product pulling every demographic is deemed to be "confidential".

Had a long discussion about this issue with P. Fuss, was pretty interesting
Donnie Darko
QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 6 2010, 02:43 AM) *

QUOTE(Alan @ Aug 5 2010, 12:49 AM) *
Read this discussion on the American Distiller Forums, notably:-

"Granting the IGP for absinthe will have no effect on American absinthe producers. It doesn't even indicate an intention by Val de Travers producers to claim exclusive worldwide rights to the name. I know Ted Breaux and David Nathan-Maister are well respected, but they are grossly exaggerating the threat to absinthe producers outside of Switzerland."
Not my words, but those of Charles Cowdery, a well-known US drinks expert.



I don't understand how a post by a well-known US drinks expert on an internet forum should be taken as proof of anything regarding actual Swiss intentions or actual results of the Swiss law. It's the opinion of someone who is not a European legal expert, thus carries little weight. How about quoting what the IGP actually says and what enforcers of such laws say it will do?

I was given the impression that the IGP requires absinthe to be made in Switzerland if it is to be labeled Absinthe. That goes WAY beyond merely saying that some shitty Czech oil mix is not Absinthe, and traverses beyond the innocent claim of "protecting business" into the realm of plain anti-competitive practices. Am I wrong?

Ironically, the fact that Bugnon is making Butterfly is actually NOT a contradiction of the "It must be Swiss if it is to be called Absinthe" notion put forth in the IGP, because since this absinthe is being made in Switzerland, even though historically it was American, then it is able to be considered "Absinthe". It may be an adopted bastard step child, but it seems to fit within the wacky parameters of the IGP, no?
Zman
FWIW, I agree with you. Charles Cowdery may be knowledgeable, but I think he doesn't grasp what this IGP bullshit can do.
Provenance
QUOTE
Project P

That sounds more like a marketing project than putting herbs in a pot. But then, IGP also sounds like a marketing project.

QUOTE(Esseintes @ Aug 5 2010, 08:18 AM) *
If your intention was to prohibit crapsinth in Switzerland that's one thing, but that's just one side of the coin. The other clearly means to get rid of competitors.

While European antics can be amusing (to those without a vested interest), from an American perspective, the most important goal is to prevent any new domestic regulations that would limit the availability of absinthe or make it yet more difficult/complicated/expensive to bring absinthes to market.
absinthist
I have tried all the possible proto's of Butterfly, distiller's proof etc and I like it as something new. Once I get the bottle of the official release I will post the proper review together with the review of the latest, still on the Artist's level=read pre-official, work, made in Switzerland.
Alan
QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Aug 6 2010, 05:48 AM) *

I don't understand how a post by a well-known US drinks expert on an internet forum should be taken as proof of anything regarding actual Swiss intentions or actual results of the Swiss law. It's the opinion of someone who is not a European legal expert, thus carries little weight. How about quoting what the IGP actually says and what enforcers of such laws say it will do?
I quoted this expert as a complete absinthe "neutral" who has a good knowledge of international agreements within the drinks industry. He made his comments on a forum where some distillers here participate and they did not challenge his statements there.

The IGP itself does not refer to anything outside Switzerland and there is no automatic recognition of the IGP in the EU. In the highly theoretical event that this was to be sought, it would be subject to negotiation between EU and Swiss officials. The "expert" I quoted says that, Claude-Alain says that, and I have seen documents from an "enforcer" to that effect (only because I wanted to do my own due diligence on this).

QUOTE(Donnie Darko @ Aug 6 2010, 05:48 AM) *

I was given the impression that the IGP requires absinthe to be made in Switzerland if it is to be labeled Absinthe. Am I wrong?
The IGP only has that effect within Switzerland (more precisely they should be made in the Val-de-Travers). If, theoretically, any extension to that was requested, it would have to be negotiated. Highly theoretical and, in my opinion, highly unlikely to be implemented.
Alan
For those interested in Fée Verte reviews of Butterfly, the first ones are here.
Provenance
For anyone interested in Alan's shameless self-promotion, it can be found here
Provenance
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