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The Fée Verte Absinthe Forum - The Oldest, Largest, Most Authoritative Absinthe Forum. > Absinthe & Absinthiana > Dr Magnan's Lab
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dr_ordinaire
A little historical data and then I yield the podium to the Forum experts.

Chemists may have had problems measuring winnie.gif', but nobody can seriously say that they couldn't measure the volume of essential oil extracted from an herb. Pernod tells us that their finished absinthe had 150 ppm.gif of essential oil of wormwood. How much winnie.gif is that?

As per TABREAUX, June 2000:

"FWIW according to Sacco and Cialva (1988), oil of Artemisia absinthium typically is comprised (w/w) of 59.9% alpha and 2.3% beta, which equals 62.2% total. "

So it's 150ppm x .62 = 93 ppm.gif (or mg/Kg)


93 mg/Kg coincides nicely with what Don Walsh (Ted's distiller) said in 2000:

"The EU allows absinthe of commerce to contain up to 10 mg/Kg -- equivalent to parts per million -- which is mild compared to the estimated 60-90 mg/Kg of premium Belle Epoch absinthes. "


This coincides also with what Ted had found about levels of winnie.gif in vintage absinthes, over many years of research and several analyses:

On June 5, 2000, TABREAUX said:

"Using every bit of information I've processed over the past seven years, my calculations indicate that quality original Pontarlier labels contained anywhere from 50-100mg/kg total winnie.gif. "

http://www.feeverte.net/archive/messages/16/138.html

Since they were making a faithful reproduction of Pernod, what levels of winnie.gif could we expect in Jade? Lets see what Don revealed on June 5, 2000:

"Yes, pre-ban Pernod was probably close to 100 mg/Kg. As we are preparing to market a (non-EU compliant) authentic recreation of Pernod, and as we have the original pre-ban products to comapre it to, our product will be in the 90 mg/Kg class."
http://www.feeverte.net/archive/messages/16/138.html

Of course they put 90mg/Kg, since TABREAUX declared in June 18, 2000

"Granted, a product with little winnie.gif is generally representative of a poorly crafted, non-authentic product,"


http://www.feeverte.net/archive/messages/16/42.html

But now, Feb. 8, 2004, Ted thinks different:

"If the concentrate is a properly distilled product, it will contain only a very tiny concentration of , and certainly nowhere near 100 mg/kg!! "


Excuse me? Jade's Authentic Pernod Absinthe, in 2000, had 90mg/kg of winnie.gif' but Jade's Authentic Pernod Absinthe, in 2004, has next to none. Will the authentic Authentic Pernod Absinthe please stand up? They cannot BOTH be authentic, you know.

Could it be that Ted is so horrendously incompetent as a researcher and a chemist that he spent 7 years researching and analysing vintage absinthes and only could come up with results that are wrong by a factor of TWENTY!

No way. Ted is a very competent chemist. And the numbers he posted on June 5, 2000 (50-100 mg/Kg) are the REAL numbers for winnie.gif' in vintage absinthe.

Don mentioned 90mg/Kg in Jade, not because he wanted to lure the "get-me-high" crowd, but because 90mg/Kg is what you get WHEN YOU MAKE AUTHENTIC ABSINTHE. Not a good or bad number, just what it is.

Were they bullshiting us in 2000 or are they bullshitting us now?

So what has actually changed in the last four years: the chemical composicion of vintage absinthe...or Jade's marketing plans?

< 10 mg/Kg = European Market Open > 10 mg/Kg = European Market Closed

You have to reach your own conclusions. Phil's indignation, though poorly expressed, is valid. This is an historical travesty. They are trying to sell us Premium Absente as Authentic Absinthe.

The history and the very essence of absinthe are being changed under our very noses.

Anyway, let's finish this post with a funny note. According to Ted on June 5, 2000, those who buy the new "thujone-free" Jade looking for secondaries are shit-out-of-luck, because Ted thinks that:

"I do agree that I feel that winnie.gif is not the only player in the secondary effects, although I'm convinced it plays an important role. "
traineraz
Dr. O --

Would you mind reviewing George Dubya Bush's speeches and statements over the last, say, 15 years?

Thanks! hyper.gif

The stuff you quoted was largely "before my time," so to speak. Surely there is a point where Ted announced that his early findings were wrong. Did you find that, or did you stop looking . . .
dr_ordinaire
One bullshitter at a time, Trainer, one at a time...
I_B_Puffin
I think in 2000 Ted was going by calculations based on others research and the assumption that close to all the chop.gif made it through the distillation process.

Now in 2004 he has had actual test results and accurate measurements.

If you don't believe Ted, read the article from LDF. They tested vintage Pernod.
I_B_Puffin
Of course that is just a guess since Ted hasn't actually published any of his work.

BlackJack
What IS it with you, man? Gee, you don't think that in 3-odd years, Ted's research may have uncovered that his initial estimates were INCORRECT?! It happens all the time in science.

What motivation, exactly, would Ted have for low-balling the -chop.gif- content of vintage absinthe (and absinthe in general)? If he ever did end up selling a commercial product (for which I hold no breath), it would be more to his advantage to do what the rest of the absinthe-makers do and make unsubstantiate claims of HIGH -chop.gif- levels. It's not like there are enough people with the skill and equipment to test them. If anything, by telling the TRUTH, he undermines the mass appeal of any theoretical future product, since most people just look for high Pr0K-RiBZ.

So, yes, you're right. Ted and Don, like the rest of us old-timers, initially held incorrect ideas about the levels of -chop.gif- in absinthe. The difference is, Ted went to the trouble to TEST those ideas, and to then admit his error. What have YOU contributed to the sum of absinthe knowlege, besides a few paranoid rants and absinthium in the coloring step?
thegreenimp
Ordinaire forgot his "Winston" that he received from the Lounge, the last time he started this garbage.
BlackJack
Oh, sorry, I didn't see the bit where you explain that you think Ted is low-balling to let him market his absinthe in Europe. Brilliant. Except he seems in no hurry to market anything just now.

How then do you explain products like Versinthe Blanche, and other "bitters" which claim to have 30mg/kg, but barely register a blip on assays done by people OTHER than Ted? Are they in on the conspiracy too?

It doesn't take an incompotent chemist to get false-positives for alpha-chop.gif, if I'm reading the German report correctly. There are other terpenes that spike very close to alpha-chop.gif and pretty much EVERYBODY has been making the same mistake.
Ted is one of the people clever enough to figure it out.

Listen, Dr. O. If you are so convinced you are right, put yout gas chromatographer where your mouth is. Go do your own research and show us the numbers. Until then, anything you say is nothing more than wild speculation.
tabreaux
I did make the above quotes, just as did Dr. Wilfred N. Arnold and numerous other researchers who preceded us by well over a century. It should serve as a fine example of how researchers sometimes find themselves in error, simply by taking for granted a widely accepted, age-old belief that later proves to be false. In fact, I also took these antiquated assumptions for granted through the extent of my historical research in the '90s.

As I pointed out in another thread, it all seems plausible enough until one has proper means and the materials, and takes the initiative to make a thorough examination. This had not been performed previously for various reasons, perhaps the most prevalent of which being the fact that the technology capable of resolving such questions has only been available in recent times, and another being the unavailability of original material. Even so, a former member of this board once clearly demonstrated that despite having the necessary equipment, if the protocol or setup is compromised ever so slightly, the result is false positives (remember when Herbsaint supposedly checked out at 35mg/kg? - which is absolutely false).

It wasn't until I was well into the analytical phase of my research that I attained the required analytical resolution and happened upon this revelation, which proved to be startling. So significant was it that it caused a profound change in my thinking, which set off a rather fascinating chain of events. Others who follow suit by following the specified protocols to the letter will realize the same result (as Ian has demonstrated). Whether or not vintage absinthe contained detectable concentrations of thu-jone or any other compound never made any difference to me whatsoever. Nevertheless, it remains a fact that it did not contain significant concentrations of the lone compound selected to demonize it by those factions who had political/economic reasons to do so.
Head_prosthesis
Here's a rhetorical question.

If chop.gif is bad, and causes seisures and what not
and it's not naturally present in well made absinthes
(such as Vintage Pernod) why would producers want
to add a poison to a drink that doesn't necessarily
need it in the first place?

"Enjoy the cool, fresh taste of Chesterfield"



hartsmar
Excellent point Head...
Aion
Umm, the thrill of suicide?
Marketing slogans like:
"magic poison for the rotten people"
ranting.gif
Dr. Paul
I guess the thrill and danger could sell to some idiots (of which there are alot of). Like smoking - it kills you, gives you very little back, yet makes you look "cool" while doing it. Or at least thats an argument i got back a few times when asking people why they smoke.

Guess its just another one of those "the public in general are idiots".

Yes, i know i am.
Absomphe
I was going to respond with comments like the last few, but suddenly the definition of "rhetorical question" flashed brilliantly in my otherwise addled brain, and I demurred! dev.gif
Hiram
It's because it makes it more of a vice. We had a thread here a while back about our favorite vices. Poison in absinthe makes it more so to the popular (i.e. ignorant) mind.

I could give a shit less about thujone, but if I can expect no "absinthe effect" (I refuse to consider it "secondary"), then I'll be god-damned if I'm going to spend $100 for a bottle of booze unless it's damned fine single malt scotch. When I want an anise flavored liqueur, I'll buy a pastis for $30. I don't care if the effect comes from thujones or from Tom Jones, or a combination of other herbs, but that's why I pay exorbitant shipping rates. That, and I'm a die-hard romantic who loves the ritual of it all.

It seems to me there was a lot of dissing of Absente going on not long ago. Wasn't the derision because it didn't contain the all-important (at that time) thujone? Maybe we should all reconsider Absente. Without changing, it has gone from fake absinthe to real absinthe! It's got wormwood and anise and it louches, so it's absinthe, right? Or isn't it? Doesn't Southern Wormwood count? It's a traditional ingredient of absinthe. It's not as bitter as Grand Wormwood, but now we all hear real absinthe wasn't bitter (contemporary accounts to the contrary). It doesn't have any appreciable amount of thujone, just like real absinthe.

The question we are again facing, and whose answer keeps changing, is: what are the criteria for a drink to be considered genuine absinthe?
Donnie Darko
QUOTE (BlackJack @ Feb 11 2004, 08:57 PM)


Listen, Dr. O.  If you are so convinced you are right, put yout gas chromatographer where your mouth is.

You'd need a GC the size of Jupiter to fit in his big ass mouth. sp_ike.gif sp_ike.gif sp_ike.gif sp_ike.gif sp_ike.gif sp_ike.gif

How ironic that the huge quantity of time Dr. Snordinaire spent poring over the forum archives in a desperate attempt to find a contradiction in Ted's statements, in fact led to a revelation that Ted's thorough research helped to shatter previously held notions of thujone levels in vintage Absinthe.

Good job, Dr. Here's a trophy for you: dildollwhite.gif
Kallisti
QUOTE
It seems to me there was a lot of dissing of Absente going on not long ago. Wasn't the derision because it didn't contain the all-important (at that time) winnie.gif? Maybe we should all reconsider Absente. Without changing, it has gone from fake absinthe to real absinthe! It's got wormwood and anise and it louches, so it's absinthe, right? Or isn't it? Doesn't Southern Wormwood count? It's a traditional ingredient off absinthe. It's not as bitter as Grand Wormwood, but now we all hear real absinthe wasn't bitter (contemporary accounts to the contrary). It doesn't have any appreciable amount of winnie.gif, just like real absinthe.


Just in case you weren't being facetious, I'm going to answer:


No. No. No.

U.S. domestic Absente is an absinthe substitute. It does not containt Artemisia Absinthium. No A.A. No Absinthe.

The euro variety *does* contain A.A., but it is still considered a rather poor variety of absinthe.

THOOOOOOJONE does not an absinthe make. winnie.gif is moot, it is the Artemisia Absinthium itself that must be present. If southernwood made Absente absinthe, so would sage or mugwort. Ew!

And southernwood is not a traditional ingredient in absinthe.

http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/eng...l?Arte_abr.html

Kirk
We argue about a thing we all love ,
We argue , we learn the others opinions, findings
opinions change. Findings are updated, Status quo is nudged a little.
We argue about a thing we love, we are witting cohorts.
Accomplices.
Co- conspirators.
Associates.
Researchers.
Drinkers.
Talkers.
Skeptics.
Absomphe
Sounds like a Forum to me. shock.gif

It's like the old saying:

When life hands you winnie.gif

Write poetry.


Thanks Kirk! yes.gif
Hiram
QUOTE (Kallisti @ Feb 12 2004, 08:25 AM)
Just in case you weren't being facetious, I'm going to answer:
No. No. No.

U.S. domestic Absente is an absinthe substitute.  It does not containt Artemisia Absinthium.  No A.A. No Absinthe.

Me? Facetious? Surely you jest!!

However I was actually mistaken that the ingredient in Absente was a variety of A. Absinthium. I stand corrected; thank you.
firedeity
Could it be that even the distillers dont know that winnie.gif is poop.gif ?
pierreverte
winnie.gif is marketing that works right now, unfortunately
pierreverte
witness this crap:

Kirk
Ewww. godzilla.gif
Thanks Pierre!
Conju
I don't think that constitutes anything we stand for.


I'll pay you $100 for the bottle. pirate2.gif

:dripping with sarcasm:
firedeity
Smokin Monkey.gif poop.gif

look...the monkey left some extract!
turangalila
What's especially bizarre about L'Extreme D'Absente is that it's marketed to be added into normal absinthe, to up the winnie.gif ratio, but unless you were using it straight, as absinthe itself, it would hardly do anything with a couple of drops - assuming it even contains 30 ppm.gif as it claims to.

I was really dissapointed (although not surprised) when I saw that being sold in France, next, of course, to the picture of Van Gogh looking blurry.

If I ever drank anything and the world starts looking refracted and multicolored, I suppose I'd call an ambulance.
Absomphe
Hartsmar:

Thar she blows Matey...Le Bomb de winnie.gif! pirate2.gif
Artemis
I salute Dr. Ordinaire on his forum research ability (no sarcasm intended). He has indeed put together a string of then and now posts that seemingly have Ted contradicting himself. However, if you did the same search on me, you'd find lots of things I said years ago that I would disavow today. It doesn't mean I was lying then, or lying now, much less that there is some conspiracy to defraud; it only means I've learned along the way.

"If I ever drank anything and the world starts looking refracted and multicolored, I suppose I'd call an ambulance."

Well, shroom juice is SUPPOSED to have that result ....
Absomphe
"Well, shroom juice is SUPPOSED to have that result"


As I vaguely recall it DID, when I tried it. It was a lot like looking at the landscape through a prism. Damn those Sierra Nevadas were never more beautiful!!!

Hiram
QUOTE (Absomphe @ Feb 12 2004, 02:10 PM)
Damn those Sierra Nevadas were never more beautiful!!!

Particularly since you were in the Bronx at the time.
Absomphe
The BRONX!!!! Ewww!! poop.gif

I've NEVER been THAT stoned!!!!
Wolfgang
Ok , could it be my turn now ? I want a full report of every contradictions I posted in the last years made by the official forum hitorian/librarian Dr.O !

It's not fair, he's always petting the same guy ! harhar.gif
Absomphe
Wolfgang:

I'm too damned lazy to attempt that kind of archival undertaking, so let me just do a little advanced headbonking for those contradictions, so you won't feel too neglected! headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif

Will that suffice, for the nonce? dev.gif
tabreaux
QUOTE (Wolfgang @ Feb 12 2004, 05:08 PM)
Ok , could it be my turn now ? I want a full report of  every contradictions I posted in the last years made by the official forum hitorian/librarian Dr.O !

I'm sure you'll get your turn in due time.

But in the spirit of being fair, shouldn't we likewise humor ourselves with Ordinaire's long list of priceless quotes and contradictions as well? Here is but a sampler...


The Attack:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 05:10 pm:
(Don) let me destroy you, and enjoy it...

The Contradiction:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Saturday, April 13, 2002 - 10:06 pm:
Don, you may have not realized this, but I have not posted any personal attacks on you, Ted or Artemis.

The poop.gif :
By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 10:41 pm:
….lying is not one of my sins. winnie.gif


The Boast:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 11:09 am:
…whether you like it or nor, Dr. O was distilling absinthe at a time when you thought Pernod was a French bicycle maker...

The Truth:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 10:05 pm:
I never said I was an "experienced distiller"

The Reality:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 01:35 am:
My absinthe, much loved by everybody for 2 years, suddenly becomes a piece of shit.

The Delusion:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 11:49 pm:
…my absinthe was wonderful.

The Contradiction:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 11:09 am:
Of course I'm not a Hausgemachter.

Worthy of an Encore poop.gif :
By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 10:41 pm:
….lying is not one of my sins. winnie.gif


The Denial:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Monday, April 15, 2002 - 04:35 pm:
I wanted to "dominate this Forum" I would not have started by stating from the very beginning that I was NOT a chemist, NOT a distiller, just a rank amateur.

The Confession:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 10:04 am:
I'm going to re-state something I have said before: Don and Ted know A SHITLOAD more about absinthe than I do. I will probably never know as much as they do.

And the Strange:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 09:59 am:
I grew up listening to Mr. Spock speak Spanish...


Smokin Monkey.gif
Absomphe
"And the Strange:
By Dr_Ordinaire on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 09:59 am:
I grew up listening to Mr. Spock speak Spanish..."

This last entry might really explain a lot, if you think about it. blink.gif

rjordan
That was awesome Tabreaux. So fooking funny. I especially enjoyed the attack, contradiction, shit, boast, truth, reality, delusion, contradiction, worthy of an encore shit, denial, confession, and strange breakdown of all the quotes. As the James Bond song goes....Nobody does it better....










gun thug.gif
Conju
Take THAT liars society! dev.gif

headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif headbonk.gif Put Dr_Ordinare (the member not the chemist) in the middle of our circle of shit!
Sponge Bob
QUOTE (Dr_Ordinaire @ Feb 11 2004, 08:10 PM)
A little historical data and then I yield the podium to the Forum experts.

Chemists may have had problems measuring winnie.gif', but nobody can seriously say that they couldn't measure the volume of essential oil extracted from an herb. Pernod tells us that their finished absinthe had 150 ppm.gif of essential oil of wormwood. How much winnie.gif is that?

Ok Dr. 0

That number is a little hard to take.

Let's have a look again at Ian's article on the reference section here.

He states that 25 grams of wormwood would yeild 87.5mg of oil before distilling.

Running the math on your 150mg number, it would take 142 grams of wormwood per liter assuming that 30% of the oil made it through the distillation process.

Hell it would take 42 grams of wormwood to get 150mg of oil BEFORE distillation.

In all of the historical recipes you've ever seen anywhere, have you ever seen wormwood used in such quantity?

I_B_Puffin
I think I will go back and delete all my old posts.

"Anything you say, can and will be used against you"
hartsmar
Yeah, I'm getting a little worried here.
There are too many things about little fluffy things in here that can be really quite bad! Ouch.


Other than that... BEAUTIFUL TED!!!!


Kirk
At least you guys don't have to live with my history of petty snarfing , bad spelling , posing, posturing and poor prose.
Zombie3.gif
Absomphe
But apparently some decent alliterative potential yes.gif
Head_prosthesis
QUOTE (I_B_Puffin @ Feb 12 2004, 11:08 PM)
I think I will go back and delete all my old posts.

"Anything you say, can and will be used against you"

hyper.gif Hey it's like LARS!.gif says,

It ain't the "Old Elephants Graveyard" for nothin'.

And Elephants never forget. So watch your ass buddy. sleepy.gif
Kirk
Now.
History.
Now.
History.
Now.
History.
Change your history ,
Change your life.
Now.




History.
Head_prosthesis
Wash
Where?
Rinse
What?
Repeat
When?


Change your underwear...
How now brown chao!
Sponge Bob
Ya'll notice how marriage has domesticated head?

Used to be his sig was GO LIVE!

Now it's about taxes and stuff..
(SB shakes his head)
crosby
winnie.gif runnin' around my brain.
Head_prosthesis
You mean this one?

GO LIVE !!!

I still keep it in my "note pad"

Sponge Bob
Yeah, but pretty soon it'll be in the shed under a box of garden tools.

Hey, it happens to the best of us.

Or maybe it happens because of the best of us..
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